[Soypopetype]

Wow... so you choose to DELETE my two posts. Even after I have written my sincere aim and thoughts. La Wallah, you are the best "brothers in Islam" I have ever seen. It is my fault for assuming that I might find some people to discuss Islam and the thoughts that I have, instead of thinking through the rest of it alone (look at my login -- dawaheed = D.A. my initials and 'waheed' = alone ---- )

بسم الله

I am not going to be apologetic about what I see regarding Islam, Hadeeth, Mathhabs -- if you truly created this "sunniforum" for discussion, you would be prepared to hear from those Sunni that are finding and learning. I am tough in believing everything I read; "just because it is written down does not mean it is true" is one of the first lessons I learned, and I apply it to everything.

Definitely, check the authenticity and sources of everything, lots of weak opinions and and weak narrations out there, lots of lies and liars online as well, my advice is the internet is the worst place to learn about Islam.

And just so you guys know: I am 34 years old, born a Muslim in a Sunni (Malaki) family, and I lived my life between the Middle East, North Africa, and the United States -- and not ONCE did I consider Allah not to be above me, and that is why the Quran is the only exception I have every made to the 'rule' I have been taught. Believe me, throughout the years, the Quran has proven to me , and still does everyday, that it is truly the word of God. That is how the Shahada is my Eman. Not because it has been passed down from family, but because I have taken with full devotion and awareness of exactly what it means, fully aware and fully considering the option of completely rejecting it if it does not make sense in my heart. I was determined not to follow blindly.

Why did you make it an exception and what is the rule? because it is the truth as handed down to us from our ancestors or because the book doesn't necessarily disagree with any of your own opinions?

And not once did the Quran did not make sense, and not once did I feel blinded while reading it, and not once did its words not fill my heart, and not once did I doubt that these are the words of Allah.

I hope you remain this way.

But since this forum has shown more and more that it will lock and delete counter thinking... I see that this is not the forum for exploring and learning; it is a forum for conforming and following.

Assalamu 3alaikum

^ this post of yours wasn't deleted though.

If you want to believe the Prophet Mohammad would say "that I have warned and commanded and prohibited things that are as important as what is in the Qur’aan, if not more so.", go right ahead.

Yes why not? However since the authenticity of the second narration hasn't been looked at I suggest you stick ONLY to the first narration I posted as it has the chains of transmission listed below it.
It says that people will come and they will reject the orders of the Prophet SAWS and claim that they follow only the Quran, nothing else. He SAWS forbade this.

I will never believe it. Here is why -- The Prophet would never put himself or his sayings above God and his Quraan.

The Quran says in chapter 53:

Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire. (3) It is naught save an inspiration that is inspired, (4)

So the words of the Prophet SAWS in religious matters are inspired by Allah, Allah is telling you that there are things not included in the Quran and they are just as important, the first important thing is the explanation of the Quran, without this explanation that is transmitted through narrations, lots of parts from the Quran could never be understood or translated to English, The only reason you're reading the Quran in English is because of these Ahadith.

The fact that the last fragment of that Hadeeth is included spoils the entire Hadeeth. You can't go around saying "yeah this part of the Hadeeth is messed up, but the rest of it is good -- we should listen to it!"

Yes we can, sometimes narrators can add their own interpretations, sometimes a weaker narrator could forget, he might add or subtract or make a mistake in transmission and this is why the scholars class different narrators in different categories.
As for the First Hadith I posted thee chains are listed below it, all of them trustworthy narrators and all of them narrating the same exact words.

And will people stop saying that I am a Quranist or a rejector of Hadeeth every time I challenge a Hadeeth with some logic? If the Hadeeth makes sense and does not conflict with the Quran I have no problem with it! But the issue I have been posting is that Hadeeth does not supersede the Quran. The Quran is the only book that has not been altered or tainted by humans, where as the Hadeeths had two centuries of lingering undocumented until Bukhari and Muslim (and others, I only read these 2 for now) filtered and studied which would be correct and which would not be correct.

How do you know that it has not been altered or tainted by Humans? were you alive 1400 years ago? Unless you trust those companions and scholars who transmit this Quran that you bought from the Library then in this case you must also believe in Hadith because they also transmitted it.

And what you said about Bukhari and Muslim is wrong, they weren't the first, Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Malik, Sahhefat 'Abdul-Rhman bin'Amro, Saheefat 'Ali bin abi Talib ect... all written before Bukhari and Muslim.

Besides don't you believe that the Quran was not preserved by being written? don't you believe that it was preserved in the hearts of the Muslims who memorized it? Well they also memorized the Hadith.

And people keep on saying something to the effect of '1400 years of study can't be wrong' --- you know who you sound like? You sound like the people of Kuraish when Mohammad first told them of Islam and they should not be worshiping idols; they said "we have been doing this for many generations like our fathers". Just because something becomes a norm does not make it part of Islam nor does it make it Sunna.

Where did they say this? get me the verse where thy say this so that i can show you that by being born into a "Sunni Maliki" family and being Muslim you've also inherited the religion of your fathers and are following it the same as the Quraysh did.

If the Prophet Mohammad (SAAW) was alive here today, YES we would follow his Sunna because it is right infront of us. But the fact is he was NOT alive when Islam got divided into two and he was NOT alive when the Hadeeth was written down.

So you only follow his orders if he's alive? didn't Allah say:

Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance). [3:32]

Did the verse say "Obey the messenger as long as he's alive" ? or quit obeying him right after he dies? So after the Messenger SAWS dies you stop obeying his words? Didn't Allah warn us from it?

Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dies or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful. [3:144]

And when Bukhari wrote the Hadeeth, the boast is that there were MANY Hadeeths that he filtered down... does that not imply that everybody was just yapping stories and linking them to the Prophet...?!

And from http://forums.*********************/...-hadiths-9733/

the total number of ahadith in the two 'Sahih's - without repetition - number roughly 2,980.

Abu Dawud reported 2,450 ahadith not found in the Sahihayn.

at-Tirmidhi reported 1,350 ahadith not reported by Abu Dawud, and not found in the Sahihayn.

an-Nasa'i reported 2,400 ahadith not reported in the four collections mentioned above.

So, the total number of ahadith reported in the 'Sunan' (of Abu Dawud, an-Nasa'i, and at-Tirmidhi) that are not reported in the two 'Sahih's number around 6,200.

So, the from the five collections mentioned above which attempted to collect the authentic ahadith gathered a total of 9,180 ahadith, most of them being weak.

Ibn Majah collected 600 ahadith not reported in the five collections mentioned above, with approximately 500 of those ahadith being weak.

Malik's 'Muwatta'' contains 50 ahadith that are not found in the collections mentioned above.

ash-Shawkani's 'Nayl al-Awtar' (which contains mostly ahadith well-known amongst the later scholars of Fiqh, and most of which are found in the 'Sunan' of ad-Daraqutni and the 'Mu'jam' of at-Tabarani) contains about 500 ahadith not found in the collections mentioned above.

The 'Musnad' of Ahmad bin Hambal contains about 1,500 ahadith not found in any of the collections mentioned above.

So, the total number of ahadith contained in all of the well-known collections are 11,830 in number, and - as mentioned earlier - about 4,400 of these are authentic.
And Allah Knows best.

What are all these numbers? Does it really stretch the mind to say that some of these might not be "authentic"?

And more:

Some interesting references to the numbers of Hadith, something I'm very interested in follow.

Ibn al-Salah narrated from al-Bukhari:

"I've memorized 100.000 sound Hadiths."

al-Bayhaqi narrated from Ahmad:

"From the Hadith some 700.000 are Sahih."

al-Zarkashi from Ibn Rahawayh:

"I've memorized 70.000 sound narrations, and 4000 forged ones."

That because of your lack of understanding of scientific terms of Hadith, when one says at the time I have memorized 100 Hadiths it could be that he memorized 100 different texts and it could also be that he memorized 100 chains for the same Hadith. I'll give you an example, the Hadith I posted above, The prophet SAWS said:

"Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch, when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden and saying: We do not know. What we found in Allah's Book we have followed."

Then I presented 11 chains for it below, thus I could say "I memorized 11 Hadiths", I hope you understand and I am sure the guy who gave you these numbers above and the quotations of the scholars already knows this but he's playing you for a fool and he succeeded because as you see, you had no idea.

From all these, you DON'T want one to say (as this is exactly what I am doing) "Ok, since I am trying to find Islam --- I will start with the Quran and make it the core of everything I believe. After which I will go to the Hadeeth and read through it --- and I will know which are correct and which are not, because I have made the core of my belief the Quran."

In the end, it is NOT rejecting Hadeeth --- it is rejecting 1) that ALL Hadeeth is true, 2) that Hadeeth is EQUAL to the Quran.

Absolutely, every Muslim must go through the Quran it is the base and it is authentic in is entirety as for the Ahadith I don't recommend that you go through them at your current level of knowledge since it's below zero, Ask those of knowledge and listen to what they tell you because you'll never be able to grade a Hadith unless you study.

And regarding your conclusion:

You reject that all Hadiths are true, and so does everyone else on this forum, nothing new here.

You rejected that Hadiths are equal to the Quran, Technically both are from God so they're the same and the only reason scholars drop a weak narration that contradicts the Quran is mainly because the Quran is stronger in terms of authenticity.

wal-Salam,