DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - What are the good traditional (non-Salafi) Hanbali resources?

**megatrendsZ** · 01-02-2011, 05:34 AM

few major corrections in zubair's post

I dont' want to continue with this debate only because I haven't read much into it; But I have a few questions,

1- Did any of Imam Asharis students or students students say it is his last work?

Did any of Abul Hasan al-Ashari's students say which was the last work ?

2 - If it is his last work how does it differ with the early 'Ashari school?

Pull out the books of al-Ashari published by Abdullah al-Habashi and you will know.

I don't understand why brothers involve themselves into such polemics and they don't know the fundamentals.

And don't discuss 'Aynayn as that's rejected even if some of the early Ashari scholars said it for there's no Nass and it's been refuted by Ibn alJawzi, Ibn 'Aqil and Ibn Hazm.

there is no NASS for your claim as well. so what you claim is also rejected even if it is supported by IBN JAWZI ( censured by dozen of hanabila including ibn qudama ) and ibn aqil ( coming from mutazilite background ) and ibn hazm ( since when did this scholar who refuted and declared asharites to be heretics suddenly become a source ?? )

c'mon why is it okay for you to reject and not okay for us to reject ? or why is it for you okay to reject what Baqillani and other senior ashari scholars said about TWO EYES ? do you think you know more about the ashari madhhab than the senior giants of Ashari Madhhab like Baqillani Juwayni and others ?

3 - If you accept this work, then you have accept Ibn Kullab, unless you can provide differences between Ibn Kullab's position to those mentioned in Ibanah.

It is the same ibn kullab who Dhahabi said he might have agreed with heretic Mutazilites on the issues which differ between heretic mutazilites and sunni muslims ?
let us read the complete bio of ibn kullab by dhahabi.

And to clarify to abulayl, Asharis don't deny the work, they say it's been tampered with.

this is one of the most misleading statement. who are these "they" who say it is been tampered with ? are you referring to Habib Hasan Ali Saqqaf or his likes ?

are these "they" which zubair is referring to mentioned here http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...l=1#post556624 by ibn darbas al-ashari ?

let us read the bio of ibn kullab from Dhahabi:
http://www.asharis.com/creed/article...-al-ashari.cfm

Ibn Kullaab: The head of the Mutakallimeen (speculative Theologians, kalaamists) of al-Basrah in his time, Abu Muhammad, Abdullaah bin Sa'eed bin Kullaab al-Qattaan al-Basree. The author of works in refutation of the Mu'tazilah and perhaps he agreed with them [in affairs].

Dawud ad-Dhaahiree took Kalaam from him, [this was] said by Abu at-Taahir adh-Dhuhlee.

And it has been said: That al-Haarith al-Muhaasibee took the knowledge of inspection and argumentation from him as well. He used be called "kullaab" because he used to entice the disputant towards himself through his speech and eloquence. And his associates are the Kullaabiyyah. Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari met some of them. And he (Ibn Kullaab) use to refute the Jahmiyyah.

And some of those who do not know said: That he innovated what he innovated in order to [enter and] conceal the religion of the Christians into our religion, and that he pleased his sister by that. And this is false for the man was the closest of the mutakallimeen (speculative theologians) to the Sunnah, rather he is amongst their debators (i.e. of the mutakallimeen).
And he used to say that the Qur'an is established with the self [of Allaah] without [being tied to Allaah's] qudrah (power) or mashee'ah (will). And no one preceded him in this [saying] at all. He said this in opposing the one who spoke with the creation of the Qur'an.
And he authored on [the subject] of Tawheed and affirmation of the attributes, and that Allaah being above His creation is something known through the innate instinct (fitrah), and the intellect, in agreement with the (revealed) text. And al-Muhaasibee said likewise in the book "Fahm ul-Qur'aan". I did not come across the death [date] of Ibn Kullaab, and he was alive prior to 240H.

Ibn an-Najjaar gave mention to a biographical account for him but he was not thorough in it. He mentioned that he used to be at the time of al-Junayd, and that he heard something of the expressions of the Soofees, and that he was amazed by him and held him in awe.

Muhammad bin Ishaaq an-Nadeem said: Ibn Kullaab is from the generation of the Hashawiyyah. He had debates with Abbaad bin Salmaan, and he would say, "The Speech of Allaah is Allaah", and Abbaad would say, "He is a Christian by this saying".

And Abu al-Abbaas al-Baghawee said: Faythoon the Christian said to me: May Allaah have mercy upon Abdullaah [bin Sa'eed bin Kullaab]. He used to come to me to the Church and would take from me, and if he remained alive, we would have turned the Muslims into Christians. So it was said to Faythoon: What do you say about al-Maseeh [Easaa bin Maryam]? He said: [The same] as what the people of your Sunnah say regarding the Qur'an.

And to Ibn Kullaab belongs the book "as-Sifaat" as well as the book "Khalq al-Af'aal" and "Kitaab ar-Radd alal-Mu'tazilah".

keep avoiding the key questions, because truth shall prevail and falsehood will perish.

01-02-2011, 05:34 AM	#28
megatrendsZ Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 468 Senior Member	few major corrections in zubair's post I dont' want to continue with this debate only because I haven't read much into it; But I have a few questions, 1- Did any of Imam Asharis students or students students say it is his last work? Did any of Abul Hasan al-Ashari's students say which was the last work ? 2 - If it is his last work how does it differ with the early 'Ashari school? Pull out the books of al-Ashari published by Abdullah al-Habashi and you will know. I don't understand why brothers involve themselves into such polemics and they don't know the fundamentals. And don't discuss 'Aynayn as that's rejected even if some of the early Ashari scholars said it for there's no Nass and it's been refuted by Ibn alJawzi, Ibn 'Aqil and Ibn Hazm. there is no NASS for your claim as well. so what you claim is also rejected even if it is supported by IBN JAWZI ( censured by dozen of hanabila including ibn qudama ) and ibn aqil ( coming from mutazilite background ) and ibn hazm ( since when did this scholar who refuted and declared asharites to be heretics suddenly become a source ?? ) c'mon why is it okay for you to reject and not okay for us to reject ? or why is it for you okay to reject what Baqillani and other senior ashari scholars said about TWO EYES ? do you think you know more about the ashari madhhab than the senior giants of Ashari Madhhab like Baqillani Juwayni and others ? 3 - If you accept this work, then you have accept Ibn Kullab, unless you can provide differences between Ibn Kullab's position to those mentioned in Ibanah. It is the same ibn kullab who Dhahabi said he might have agreed with heretic Mutazilites on the issues which differ between heretic mutazilites and sunni muslims ? let us read the complete bio of ibn kullab by dhahabi. And to clarify to abulayl, Asharis don't deny the work, they say it's been tampered with. this is one of the most misleading statement. who are these "they" who say it is been tampered with ? are you referring to Habib Hasan Ali Saqqaf or his likes ? are these "they" which zubair is referring to mentioned here http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...l=1#post556624 by ibn darbas al-ashari ? let us read the bio of ibn kullab from Dhahabi: http://www.asharis.com/creed/article...-al-ashari.cfm Ibn Kullaab: The head of the Mutakallimeen (speculative Theologians, kalaamists) of al-Basrah in his time, Abu Muhammad, Abdullaah bin Sa'eed bin Kullaab al-Qattaan al-Basree. The author of works in refutation of the Mu'tazilah and perhaps he agreed with them [in affairs]. Dawud ad-Dhaahiree took Kalaam from him, [this was] said by Abu at-Taahir adh-Dhuhlee. And it has been said: That al-Haarith al-Muhaasibee took the knowledge of inspection and argumentation from him as well. He used be called "kullaab" because he used to entice the disputant towards himself through his speech and eloquence. And his associates are the Kullaabiyyah. Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari met some of them. And he (Ibn Kullaab) use to refute the Jahmiyyah. And some of those who do not know said: That he innovated what he innovated in order to [enter and] conceal the religion of the Christians into our religion, and that he pleased his sister by that. And this is false for the man was the closest of the mutakallimeen (speculative theologians) to the Sunnah, rather he is amongst their debators (i.e. of the mutakallimeen). And he used to say that the Qur'an is established with the self [of Allaah] without [being tied to Allaah's] qudrah (power) or mashee'ah (will). And no one preceded him in this [saying] at all. He said this in opposing the one who spoke with the creation of the Qur'an. And he authored on [the subject] of Tawheed and affirmation of the attributes, and that Allaah being above His creation is something known through the innate instinct (fitrah), and the intellect, in agreement with the (revealed) text. And al-Muhaasibee said likewise in the book "Fahm ul-Qur'aan". I did not come across the death [date] of Ibn Kullaab, and he was alive prior to 240H. Ibn an-Najjaar gave mention to a biographical account for him but he was not thorough in it. He mentioned that he used to be at the time of al-Junayd, and that he heard something of the expressions of the Soofees, and that he was amazed by him and held him in awe. Muhammad bin Ishaaq an-Nadeem said: Ibn Kullaab is from the generation of the Hashawiyyah. He had debates with Abbaad bin Salmaan, and he would say, "The Speech of Allaah is Allaah", and Abbaad would say, "He is a Christian by this saying". And Abu al-Abbaas al-Baghawee said: Faythoon the Christian said to me: May Allaah have mercy upon Abdullaah [bin Sa'eed bin Kullaab]. He used to come to me to the Church and would take from me, and if he remained alive, we would have turned the Muslims into Christians. So it was said to Faythoon: What do you say about al-Maseeh [Easaa bin Maryam]? He said: [The same] as what the people of your Sunnah say regarding the Qur'an. And to Ibn Kullaab belongs the book "as-Sifaat" as well as the book "Khalq al-Af'aal" and "Kitaab ar-Radd alal-Mu'tazilah". keep avoiding the key questions, because truth shall prevail and falsehood will perish.
	Quote