DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Proof for asking the Prophet to make dua for you?

**lakraboob** · 06-20-2011, 10:43 PM

That narration is analysed with the understanding of some classical scholars in this article.

Narration of Malik al Dar, evidence for Tawassul by the living & not by the Prophet after his death

The reply to your objection is given as:

The ones who use this hadith for this type of tawassul say that Umar radiyallahu anhu did not rebuke the man who did istisqa’ at the grave.

Reply:
There is no clear evidence in the hadith indicating that the man told Umar of him going to the grave, but clearly he did tell him of the dream, telling him the message of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. So to say that he told him about his istisqa’ at the grave is an assumption, and we can’t use assumptions as evidence.

There is no evidence that Umar radiyallahu anhu knew about the man going to the grave of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. I will explain it to you in the following points insha Allah:

1. In the narration it says (The man went and told `Umar), it does not mention what the man told Umar, if he told him that he went to the grave and about the dream, or if he ONLY told him about the dream. We know for sure that he told him about the dream but we don’t have any evidence that he told him about him going to the grave.

It is just an assumption, and we can’t use assumptions as evidence.

2. If the man told Umar radiyallahu anhu that he went to the grave of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and made tawassul through him, then why would Umar radiyallahu anhu make tawassul through al Abbas after knowing that?

Isn’t the tawassul through the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam sufficient? and he is the best creation of Allah !

Brother, the reason I am asking for any other evidences is because the understanding of that narration is in doubt. And if the act was "commendable and most virtuous" then surely there would be other evidences for it as well.

If there arent other proofs then why shouldnt the following principle apply in this case:

"If there is a doubt whether a practice is Sunnah or bid'ah, then to omit a Sunnah is better than perpetrating a bid'ah."

My brother in Islam,

It appears that you like arguing for the sake of arguing. In the article we have "half quoted bits laced with a healthy dose of spin by Um Abdullah!". There is nothing substantive to discuss e.g. here are examples of her "spin"

He didn’t mention the rest of the hadith because it has nothing to do with the chapter heading, he only quoted what he believed fits the chapters title, for he says at the end of the section, after mentioning this narration: (Note: these 2 narrations could be weak, but the point is that al Hafidh Ibn Kathir rahimahu Allah mentioned them right before the narration of Malik, showing what it is about, which shows what he understood it to mean, same as what Ibn Hajar (r A) understood from it). You say that it’s an "assumption" that the man told Sayyidina Umar (RA). Instead of arguing I take your word on face value, equally its “assumption” on your part to say that “he didn’t”. Please present ESTABLISHED FACTS that:

The man didn't tell Sayyidina Umar (RA)
And if he did then he was REBUKED & REFUTED by Sayyidina Umar (RA)

If you reject my assumption then I reject your assumption. Again instead of spending 5 days arguing back and forth I am giving you the leeway that its "an assumption"

The words "commendable and most virtuous" are the words of Shaykh Yusuf Ludhyanwi (RA), here my purpose was to establish the "permissibility" of the matter by this Athar and unless you can categorically prove otherwise it stands!

The Tawasul through Sayyidina Ibn Abbas (RA) is a separate matter and not to MixNMatch and these are separate matters. Its a major "assumption" on your part to link the two together merely on hypothesis and supposition.

Discuss facts and we can continue this discussion further.

P.S: I am Sorry but I am not a politician so you will have to do something better then this! You want to argue for 5 days over spin, carry on.

06-20-2011, 10:43 PM	#7
lakraboob Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 451 Senior Member	That narration is analysed with the understanding of some classical scholars in this article. Narration of Malik al Dar, evidence for Tawassul by the living & not by the Prophet after his death The reply to your objection is given as: The ones who use this hadith for this type of tawassul say that Umar radiyallahu anhu did not rebuke the man who did istisqa’ at the grave. Reply: There is no clear evidence in the hadith indicating that the man told Umar of him going to the grave, but clearly he did tell him of the dream, telling him the message of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. So to say that he told him about his istisqa’ at the grave is an assumption, and we can’t use assumptions as evidence. There is no evidence that Umar radiyallahu anhu knew about the man going to the grave of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. I will explain it to you in the following points insha Allah: 1. In the narration it says (The man went and told `Umar), it does not mention what the man told Umar, if he told him that he went to the grave and about the dream, or if he ONLY told him about the dream. We know for sure that he told him about the dream but we don’t have any evidence that he told him about him going to the grave. It is just an assumption, and we can’t use assumptions as evidence. 2. If the man told Umar radiyallahu anhu that he went to the grave of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and made tawassul through him, then why would Umar radiyallahu anhu make tawassul through al Abbas after knowing that? Isn’t the tawassul through the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam sufficient? and he is the best creation of Allah ! Brother, the reason I am asking for any other evidences is because the understanding of that narration is in doubt. And if the act was "commendable and most virtuous" then surely there would be other evidences for it as well. If there arent other proofs then why shouldnt the following principle apply in this case: "If there is a doubt whether a practice is Sunnah or bid'ah, then to omit a Sunnah is better than perpetrating a bid'ah." My brother in Islam, It appears that you like arguing for the sake of arguing. In the article we have "half quoted bits laced with a healthy dose of spin by Um Abdullah!". There is nothing substantive to discuss e.g. here are examples of her "spin" He didn’t mention the rest of the hadith because it has nothing to do with the chapter heading, he only quoted what he believed fits the chapters title, for he says at the end of the section, after mentioning this narration: (Note: these 2 narrations could be weak, but the point is that al Hafidh Ibn Kathir rahimahu Allah mentioned them right before the narration of Malik, showing what it is about, which shows what he understood it to mean, same as what Ibn Hajar (r A) understood from it). You say that it’s an "assumption" that the man told Sayyidina Umar (RA). Instead of arguing I take your word on face value, equally its “assumption” on your part to say that “he didn’t”. Please present ESTABLISHED FACTS that: The man didn't tell Sayyidina Umar (RA) And if he did then he was REBUKED & REFUTED by Sayyidina Umar (RA) If you reject my assumption then I reject your assumption. Again instead of spending 5 days arguing back and forth I am giving you the leeway that its "an assumption" The words "commendable and most virtuous" are the words of Shaykh Yusuf Ludhyanwi (RA), here my purpose was to establish the "permissibility" of the matter by this Athar and unless you can categorically prove otherwise it stands! The Tawasul through Sayyidina Ibn Abbas (RA) is a separate matter and not to MixNMatch and these are separate matters. Its a major "assumption" on your part to link the two together merely on hypothesis and supposition. Discuss facts and we can continue this discussion further. P.S: I am Sorry but I am not a politician so you will have to do something better then this! You want to argue for 5 days over spin, carry on.
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