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**hellencomstar** · 04-10-2011, 07:57 PM

Yes, but who makes these determinations?

I don't want to say things that are offensive, but a faith not questioned and wrestled with is not much of a faith.

The islam that is practiced today was formed in its entirety over generations of wrestling with these questions... but it appears to me that islamic thought decided to stop developing. When I read of early islamic thinkers... I marvel at their creativity and free thinking. Now Islam tends to be very reactionary... and islamic society lags behind the rest of the world... a world that it used to lead.

Polymaths, astrologist, avicenna, averroes... this is the Islam I am interested in. The islamic world of today... I can't imagine this intellectual vigor in the current ummah.

A very good day to you, fine sir.

I would question your usage of such terms as 'reactionary.' For one, it points to a sort of view of 'development' and 'progress,' nebulous terms though they may be, as the torch shining on the endless mountain that humanity must climb. It supposes that the 'advancements' made by humanity in recent times are an innate good, and it infers all sorts of other things that I will not go into because your worldview may vary wildly from what I am assuming it to be and thusly I would not want to reach such groundless conclusions that are beyond the very basics spoken of in your post.

For one, reason is subservient to Allah

, not the other way around. This is because 'reason' as you have dubbed it, is exercised by mankind. The speech of Allah

is here; it is all the speech we're going to get. It encourages exploration of the world, and of concepts, and encourages the development of rich and manifold ways of thinking- but these ways of thinking must have as their starting basis the Qur'an, not 'reason,' which is again something that cannot be expressed in a manner that is not subservient to the dominant sociological contexts of the age. People have used 'reason' to conclude ghastly things; does this cast aspersions on reason itself... no. Does this cast aspersions on the doctrine which concludes reason to be a goal in and of itself, without first making it bow before Allah

as all else must? I would argue that it does.

Science is a method. It is not a goal. 'Progress' is not something that is innately good in and of itself, mostly because it does not mean anything in and of itself beyond a series of emotional images that are brought up in the mind. The Islamic civilization prospered because of their faith, not in spite of it, but the widening spread of corruption brought it down once, and it did so again and again and this is not because of a defect in the Islamic frame of mind, not at all. This is because of the faith that the Ummah had and that it subsequently lost, a faith that filled the brothers and sisters of the time with a deep yearning to dig under the earth, deep into the crust that Allah

has surrounded his earth with, and see what treasures could be found.

But now here we are, and the dominant export of the Islamic world is oil, not philosophy, nor scientific discoveries. This is true. But this is because everything has been made subservient not to Allah

but to the very doctrine of progress you have mentioned.

The muck and mire we are stewed in is of our own making, but it can be fixed.

when it is, the world will be back on bended knee and turned towards Allah

. But this cannot be done by playing the game that the Islamic world has been playing, that the leaders have made it play. We tried that (read up on the twenties to the sixties in the Arab world) and it went bad, solely because of the very concept of making ourselves subservient to 'reason' instead of to Him whom we should be making ourselves subservient is abominable and insane in more ways than I can count.

I implore you to reconsider some of the conclusions you have reached. As brightly as they shine in the light of the twenty-first century, that light is cheap and flinty like the neon glow of Vegas, so transitory and so fleeting, while the nur of Allah

is a light that can never go out, even if all creation were to be spurred against it (naudhubillah).

04-10-2011, 07:57 PM	#15
hellencomstar Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 386 Senior Member	Yes, but who makes these determinations? I don't want to say things that are offensive, but a faith not questioned and wrestled with is not much of a faith. The islam that is practiced today was formed in its entirety over generations of wrestling with these questions... but it appears to me that islamic thought decided to stop developing. When I read of early islamic thinkers... I marvel at their creativity and free thinking. Now Islam tends to be very reactionary... and islamic society lags behind the rest of the world... a world that it used to lead. Polymaths, astrologist, avicenna, averroes... this is the Islam I am interested in. The islamic world of today... I can't imagine this intellectual vigor in the current ummah. A very good day to you, fine sir. I would question your usage of such terms as 'reactionary.' For one, it points to a sort of view of 'development' and 'progress,' nebulous terms though they may be, as the torch shining on the endless mountain that humanity must climb. It supposes that the 'advancements' made by humanity in recent times are an innate good, and it infers all sorts of other things that I will not go into because your worldview may vary wildly from what I am assuming it to be and thusly I would not want to reach such groundless conclusions that are beyond the very basics spoken of in your post. For one, reason is subservient to Allah , not the other way around. This is because 'reason' as you have dubbed it, is exercised by mankind. The speech of Allah is here; it is all the speech we're going to get. It encourages exploration of the world, and of concepts, and encourages the development of rich and manifold ways of thinking- but these ways of thinking must have as their starting basis the Qur'an, not 'reason,' which is again something that cannot be expressed in a manner that is not subservient to the dominant sociological contexts of the age. People have used 'reason' to conclude ghastly things; does this cast aspersions on reason itself... no. Does this cast aspersions on the doctrine which concludes reason to be a goal in and of itself, without first making it bow before Allah as all else must? I would argue that it does. Science is a method. It is not a goal. 'Progress' is not something that is innately good in and of itself, mostly because it does not mean anything in and of itself beyond a series of emotional images that are brought up in the mind. The Islamic civilization prospered because of their faith, not in spite of it, but the widening spread of corruption brought it down once, and it did so again and again and this is not because of a defect in the Islamic frame of mind, not at all. This is because of the faith that the Ummah had and that it subsequently lost, a faith that filled the brothers and sisters of the time with a deep yearning to dig under the earth, deep into the crust that Allah has surrounded his earth with, and see what treasures could be found. But now here we are, and the dominant export of the Islamic world is oil, not philosophy, nor scientific discoveries. This is true. But this is because everything has been made subservient not to Allah but to the very doctrine of progress you have mentioned. The muck and mire we are stewed in is of our own making, but it can be fixed. when it is, the world will be back on bended knee and turned towards Allah . But this cannot be done by playing the game that the Islamic world has been playing, that the leaders have made it play. We tried that (read up on the twenties to the sixties in the Arab world) and it went bad, solely because of the very concept of making ourselves subservient to 'reason' instead of to Him whom we should be making ourselves subservient is abominable and insane in more ways than I can count. I implore you to reconsider some of the conclusions you have reached. As brightly as they shine in the light of the twenty-first century, that light is cheap and flinty like the neon glow of Vegas, so transitory and so fleeting, while the nur of Allah is a light that can never go out, even if all creation were to be spurred against it (naudhubillah).
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