[PheliarearY]

wa 'alaykum as-salam wa rahmatuLlah,

yes, Hasan Ali Saqqaf al-Shadhilli is a HABIB and if you continue to deny that you will be lying Hadrami 'Urf dictates that a Habib is either [1] an elderly family member, or a [2] sunni, major 'alim and sayyid. In sey'un, for example, they only term Habib 'Ali al-Habshi as 'Habib'. Hasan 'Ali as-Saqqaf does not fall into either category.

i never asserted that you follow them, please stop playing that card If anyone is playing a card, it is you, bringing up these two individuals in the majority of your conversations directed at ash'aris. Indeed, it was you who asked, rhetorically:

will you accept Imam Muhammad Hayat Sindi's opinion and views mentioned in that book even if it goes against the ashari theory of Abdullah Habashi or Habib Hasan Ali Saqqaf . . . which indicates that you are not sure whether I whether I would contradict these two individuals, and that I subscribe to their 'ashari theory'.

Habib Hasan Ali Saqqaf al-Shadhilli and Shaykh Abdullah al-Habashi are both Asharis. Shaykh Abdullah Habashi died but Habib Hasan Ali Saqqaf is alive and you can confirm this. Both of them might have few unpopular opinions when it comes to Ashari Aqida or Fiqh but that doesn't mean you can just expel them from Ashari madhhab. Because the history is full of such examples. I'm not bothered, at least for the moment, about these two individuals. Kindly ommit them from this discussion.

I find it strange that suddenly Dhahir al-mana became acceptable to you Thanks for tackling the issue at hand! Well, it comes down to, as you rightly pointed down, whether tashbih and tamthil is trully negated, such that there are no contradictions in methodology (which I'll touch later, in sha Allah). In other words, it depends what is intended by Dhahir. Could you please define what you consider the dhahir al-ma'na to be?

please quote arabic with references like I am doing I will try and present quotes, but not like you're doing:

is it because of the quote of Imam Subki
ثمَّ أَقُول للأشاعرة قَولَانِ مشهوران فِي إِثْبَات الصِّفَات هَل تمر على ظَاهرهَا مَعَ اعْتِقَاد التَّنْزِيه أَو تؤول By all means use quotes, but provide some contextual information too, if you're not going to quote the entire passage (which can be found on the ahl al-hadith forums.

As I said, if by dhahir al-ma'na you mean the same as al-Imam as-Subki, who explicily stated after your quote: "والقول بالإمرار مع اعتقاد التنزيه هو المعزو إلى السلف وهو اختيار الإمام في الرسالة النظامية وفي مواضع من كلامه فرجوعه معناه الرجوع عن التأويل إلى التفويض ولا إنكار في هذا ولا في مقابلة فإنها مسألة اجتهادية أعني مسألة التأويل أو التفويض مع اعتقاد التنزيه"

"The position of passing it on (s: clear tafwid al-ma'na), while maintaining transcendence in belief, is that which has been attributed to the salaf, and this is the chosen position of the Imam in ar-risalah al-nizamiyyah. Thus, his returning is referring to returning from ta'wil to tafwid, and no condemnation in this, nor in it's opposite (i.e. ta'wil); this is since it is an ijtihadi matter, i.e. the matter of ta'wil or tafwid, while holding the belief of transcendence (of Allah)"

In fact, the Imam goes on to clarify that what is meant by tafwid is not interpreting it at all (which is the ash'ari position):

"إنما المصيبة الكبرى والداهية الدهياء الإمرار على الظاهر والاعتقاد أنه المراد وأنه لا يستحيل على الباري فذلك قول المجسمة عباد الوثن الذين في قلوبهم زيغ يحملهم الزيغ على اتباع المتشابه ابتغاء الفتنة عليهم لعائن الله تترى واحدة بعد أخرى ما أجرأهم على الكذب وأقل فهمهم للحقائق"

"Indeed, the greatest calamity and disaster is passing it on upon it's dhahir while beliving that this is true intent (behind the asma' and sifaat) and that this is not impossible for al-Bari (jalla jalaaluh). This is the position of the mujassimah, the worshipers of idols . . ."

Perhaps you'll direct your statement to al-Imam as-Subki, rahimahuLlah:

Will you join those who condemn and call Salafis/wahabis = anthropomorphists mushabih etc Please tell us which Ashari scholars did Dhahir al-Mana which Imam Subki was mentioning As you should have seen, Imam as-Subki was talking about ash'ari tafwid, and this was the position of the majority of the ash'aris, and which al-hafidh ibn taymiyyah severly criticised:

فتبين أن قول أهل التفويض الذين يزعمون أنهم متبعون للسنة والسلف من شر أقوال أهل البدع والإلحاد "Thus, it is clear that the saying of the people of tafwid, who claim to be following the sunnah and salaf, is from the worst of the sayings of the people bid'ah and ilhad"

Can you please show me which wahhabi or salafi said that take Dhahir al-Mana but do not negate tashbih or tamtheel As I said, it's the intent behind 'dhahir al-ma'na' which is the problem. Please define 'dhahir' according to the salafi scholars.

***

Since you've completely dodged the points about al-Imam Muhammad Hayat as-Sindi (rahimahuLlah), despite your claim "if I showed to you the opposite of your claim on Allamah Muhammad Hayat Sindi", I'd like you to present these quotes, and please address the quotes I've presented. Beneficial discussion occurs on a point-by-point basis, so please don't switch topics.

was-salam