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**Gmvkgkmn** · 03-19-2011, 06:04 AM

@ suleimanibnsalim

I had written a long post but the browser crashed. anyway, the point is that we have to unbiased and examine arguments from both sides. I think you understand the Ashari creed better than me so, I would be asking you to explain me.

Here is what al-Juwayni says about the Madhab of the Salaf in his last work he wrote after his repentance, al-‘Aqida al-Nidhamiyya – published by al-Kawthari:

“The Imams of the Salaf believed in abstaining from interpretation (ta’wil) and passing the literal meanings of the texts as they have come (ijra’ al-dhawahir ‘ala mawaridiha), while relegating (tafweedh) the meanings to the Lord Most High”

In this passage, “meaning” was used twice, and each time it was used, its obvious meaning points at a different meaning to each other

1. passing the literal (apparent) meanings of the texts as they have come

Our creed is that we believe “in what has come to us”. Here, al-Juwainee uses dhaahir, which is understood as the apparent or obvious meaning, while in the second usage of the term meaning
2. while relegating the meanings to the Lord.

It does not logically make sense in the realm of reason to employ the same concept on two different occasions and have a different methodology for each one, except that for each occasion is different from the other.

in other words, al-Juwainee is saying
“pass the apparent meanings as they come” and then turns around and says
“relegate those meanings to Allah”

A person like al-Juwainee does not make an inherently contradictory statement unless the “meaning” described in the second is different than the “meaning” described in the first.

so the statement “passing the apparent meaning as it has come” means exactly what it says. We affirm the apparent, obvious, dhaahir meaning. So Hand means Hand, Face means Face, Shin means Shin, Eyes means Eyes. Rising means Rising, Foot means Foot, etc.

So if we affirm these as the meaning, then when al-Juwainee states
“while relegating the meanings (tafweedh) to the Lord”

then the most obvious understanding that comes out of this is its nature, its kayfiyyah. That is the essence and reality of the Imaams of sunnah saying
“ijra’ al-dhawahir ‘ala mawaridiha, bila kayf”

i.e.

“We pass the apparent meanings as they have come, without how”

that is the true athari creed that we hold.

That is, we AFFIRM the dhaahir and relegate the nature to Allah.
http://islamthought.wordpress.com/20...d-allahs-hand/

What does Imam al-Haramain Abul Ma`ali Juwayni mean about TWO HANDS TWO EYES FACE in his book al-Irshad ??

suleimanibnsalim I want you to explain to me the position of Imam Haramayn on Two Hands, Two Eyes and Face......

what does it mean ?

03-19-2011, 06:04 AM	#11
Gmvkgkmn Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 451 Senior Member	@ suleimanibnsalim I had written a long post but the browser crashed. anyway, the point is that we have to unbiased and examine arguments from both sides. I think you understand the Ashari creed better than me so, I would be asking you to explain me. Here is what al-Juwayni says about the Madhab of the Salaf in his last work he wrote after his repentance, al-‘Aqida al-Nidhamiyya – published by al-Kawthari: “The Imams of the Salaf believed in abstaining from interpretation (ta’wil) and passing the literal meanings of the texts as they have come (ijra’ al-dhawahir ‘ala mawaridiha), while relegating (tafweedh) the meanings to the Lord Most High” In this passage, “meaning” was used twice, and each time it was used, its obvious meaning points at a different meaning to each other 1. passing the literal (apparent) meanings of the texts as they have come Our creed is that we believe “in what has come to us”. Here, al-Juwainee uses dhaahir, which is understood as the apparent or obvious meaning, while in the second usage of the term meaning 2. while relegating the meanings to the Lord. It does not logically make sense in the realm of reason to employ the same concept on two different occasions and have a different methodology for each one, except that for each occasion is different from the other. in other words, al-Juwainee is saying “pass the apparent meanings as they come” and then turns around and says “relegate those meanings to Allah” A person like al-Juwainee does not make an inherently contradictory statement unless the “meaning” described in the second is different than the “meaning” described in the first. so the statement “passing the apparent meaning as it has come” means exactly what it says. We affirm the apparent, obvious, dhaahir meaning. So Hand means Hand, Face means Face, Shin means Shin, Eyes means Eyes. Rising means Rising, Foot means Foot, etc. So if we affirm these as the meaning, then when al-Juwainee states “while relegating the meanings (tafweedh) to the Lord” then the most obvious understanding that comes out of this is its nature, its kayfiyyah. That is the essence and reality of the Imaams of sunnah saying “ijra’ al-dhawahir ‘ala mawaridiha, bila kayf” i.e. “We pass the apparent meanings as they have come, without how” that is the true athari creed that we hold. That is, we AFFIRM the dhaahir and relegate the nature to Allah. http://islamthought.wordpress.com/20...d-allahs-hand/ What does Imam al-Haramain Abul Ma`ali Juwayni mean about TWO HANDS TWO EYES FACE in his book al-Irshad ?? suleimanibnsalim I want you to explain to me the position of Imam Haramayn on Two Hands, Two Eyes and Face...... what does it mean ?
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