[Janny2006]

As Salamu Alaykum Sister,


Jazakallahu khair for your reply to my post. However you haven't addressed all that I asked of you. In terms of the Sunnah, you defined it but didnt really tell me where you get or rather where you get knowledge of the sunnah from. As I listed in my first post, if you take the Sunnah from hadith collections of Bukhari, Muslim, etc then you would be predominantly Sunni in orientation. If you get your info on the Sunnah of the prophet salla llahu alayhi wa sallam from collections known in the Shia tradition, then you would be Shia. My point here being is that when you talk about Quran and Sunnah, in this sense Sunnah where are you taking the sunnah from?

It can even be argued that some more extreme Shia sects have changed portions of the Quran. So which begs the question on which Quran do you use? What I mean by that is not the translation or interpretation you read but which transmitted quran do you take from?

The Quran and Sunnah are not understood in a vacuum, there is historical and other considerations that need to be taken into account before something can be derived from it and what not. The issue of the sectarian divide amongst the Muslims is a tragic fact that all humanity has faced yet it did occur. To say that you would ignore all the sectarian issues and just be Muslim like I said, is a very utopian outlook and not realistic.

Human nature demarcates things and in Islam its clear where one stands based on what sort of knowledge is taken, how one prays, what one's view of the succession of the caliphate (which despite your assertion is an important fact. Because if one were to question the legitimacy of the caliphal succession during the early times would necessitate accusing the Sahaba of wrongdoing and deviance, thus be at odds in what Allah and his Messenger viewed the Sahaba.) Islamic governance or what they call as Siyasa ash-Shariyyah is part of Islamic law and simply cannot be ignored.


To respond to your rebuttal to my paraphrase of the totality of your posts regarding sectarianism, I didnt accuse you of actually saying it. If you took it that way I apologize that was not my intent, however what I did mean was from your tone of addressing the issue seems like the creation of sects like ahl sunnah wal jamaah which is simply a label to represent what the majority of Muslims are following and to distinguish from others, is the one creating the chaos and discord. The fact that you started this thread of why there are so many sects is an indication of that.

Like I said in my original post, you would have to look into Islamic history and see how these sects developed or came about. For example the more political version of Shia tul Ali came about around the time of Abu Bakr's caliphate (which you say is the first legitimate caliph. As far as I know there is no proofs from the quran or sunnah that explicitly stated that Abu bakr is the designated successor. the only indication is implicit when The prophet salla llahu alayhi wa sallam designated Abu Bakr as to lead the Salah during his illness and eventual death, Wa Llahu Alim). Now by you taking the stance that Abu Bakr is the first Caliph, which most sunnis agree and even Zaydi Shia (though they claim Ali had more right to the caliphate but accept abu bakr's regardless) you have alienated yourself from most hard line shia (who do not accept his caliphate as valid).

So like it or not you can call yourself just a plain Muslim and tell people that, but when you take stances like that, you have already, unknowingly demarcated yourself. By you saying you follow the quran and sunnah you have alienated from the Quran only sect called the Submittors who actually think they are the true Muslims. My point being here is whatever beliefs you hold ,what sources you follow, etc etc if you were to list them all down, I can guarantee you you would fit into one of the many sects of Islam out there whether you recognize them or not.

Most of us in this forum, not all, but most of us belong to what has been termed which is a neologism and fairly new term , a Traditional Sunni Muslim. Not to further complicate things, but this is defined as Muslims who follow the understanding of the Islamic sources in an unbroken chain of transmission and authentication from student to teacher all the way back to the Messenger of Allah (salla llahu alayhi wa sallam). This means following one of the four surviving schools of fiqh (that possess this unbroken chain of learning), the Ashari or Maturidi Schools of Aqida, and acknowledges and follows one of the paths of tasawwuf (the practical science to reach the level of ihsan).


For most of us, alhamdulillah, we can sleep a little better at night because what we understand of Islam is in an unbroken chain of learning and authentication. For example in the school of fiqh I follow which is the Shafi'i school, all my Shafii fiqh teachers have an unbroken chain of learning that leads back to the main recensioner of the school Imam Nawawi , in which he and his generation upgraded and reevaluated the school and took knowledge from the generation of Imam Rafii who took from the generation of Imam Ghazali, who took from the generation of Imam Juwayni, who took from the Generation of Imam Baghawi, who took from the generation of Imam Bayhaqi, who took from the generation of Imam Muzani, who took from Imam Shafi'i who learned from the Tabi'un in Makkah who learned from Ibn Abbas who learned directly from the Messenger of Allah salla llahu alayhi wa sallam. Another chain for Imam Shafii is he learned from Imam Malik who learned from (among others) Imam Nafi who learned from Abdullah ibn Umar who learned from the Prophet salla llahu alayhi wa sallam. Another chain of Imam Shafii is he learned from Imam Muhammad ash Shaybani who learned from Imam Abu Hanifa who learned from Ibrahim an Nakhai who learned from Ibn Masud who learned from the Prophet salla llahu alayhi wa sallam.

Now all this is done through learning the Islamic sciences and history. Now I didnt pick to be in Sunni Islam because I want to disobey Allah, aoothubillah. I chose Sunni Islam because it had this chain of transmission, it reassured me that what I am following is the Islam that the Prophet and his companions transmitted to the world.

This begs the question as to what "Islam" you follow. Its easy to say I'm just Muslim and I follow the Quran and sunnah but many say that. Some of our Salafi brothers and sisters are of the opinion that all you need is the Quran and sunnah and you dont need a qualified specialist to interpret. Basically the protestant approach or what they call in protestant christianity, sola scriptura (by scripture alone). This is an entirely other topic but this only presents many problems in regards to understanding, interpretation and what not.

From what I can assess from your posts sister is that you haven't done the necessary research on this issue. This can very well be a wrong assertion or more like assumption, but this is what I can gather.

As a person who defends the rights of Muslims in America as a profession, your assertions of sectarianism in Islam, madhhabs etc is similar to how many non muslims view Islam in general and sub categories like shariah, women's rights etc. At the many talks and presentations I give people ask questions that can easily be solved if they take the time to do the research with the proper sources. When I ask them how they arrived at their conclusions, they usually say the news both print and television. When I asked them how many books they have read from qualified muslims who can write on the topic they say none. So there is the problem.

The initial question of why there are so many sects in Islam can easily be answered by getting a book on Islamic history. Now books by themselves should be taken with a grain of salt, but even academic works on Islamic history is fair and gives indications of the sectarian origins. Like for example how did the Mu'tazila school of kalam (speculative theology) came about? The founder of the school was originally from the study circle of the great Tabi' Hasan al Basri. That student and his followers were heavily influenced by rationalist neo platonic philosophy and believed that should be more emphasized then the divine revelation in explaining the nature of Allah and other matters.

I didnt get this from sitting around watching tv and eating popcorn and drinking soda, this is from learning from qualified specialists, reading their texts, gaining understanding, learning, researching. Now I am not accusing you of doing that, of being a couch potato...I'm saying that this question can be solved by taking the time to research it. For me, who for some reason has this drive to know things, whenever I want to know about a particular topic, I would buy a book on it or take a class or study under a specialist on it. Before I knew it, my library alhamdulillah, is now over a 1000 books on various topics not just Islam. Maybe you dont have that same zeal to read like I do, but if this sectarian thing is really bothering you, the first step is to see the roots of how this all came about and why its relevant now.