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**Krruqgwt** · 02-13-2011, 10:09 PM

I don't think there's any reason to discourage someone from a certain meditative technique. That seems like me telling you, "Don't try judo, it's too difficult and you wouldn't be any good at it." Just as with martial arts, different styles work better for different people. At least with this, it's not likely someone can hurt themselves practicing meditation.

Simply put, shikantaza is not a different technique in the way Judo is a different technique compared to kendo. Shikintaza is an ADVANCED type of meditation within the Zen method/technique.

I don't know Judo all that well, but I am sure that there are advanced techniques within the Judo system that beginners can't expect to learn (well) on the first day. I think in kendo, most people don't learn how to tsuki someone full speed on their first day in bogu either, right? (heck, beginners don't get into bogu on their first day either).

In Zen you don't go back and forth between meditation methods. You stick with one for awhile before you're ready to move onto a more difficult one. Usually, the two (more advanced) methods are either koan study or shikantaza, and a spiritual teacher will help you choose one depending in your temperament, but only when you have built up enough joriki, or concentration.

If I came across as a little bit arrogant, I apologize for that. As a side note, I'm not super great at Zen...I'm kind of terrible at it actually. I just know what my teacher has told me, and what others who have been doing it for 30 plus years have said. I have been around a community of really really serious Zen practioners (people who dedicate their lives full time to it...most just vocationally, but I have also been around monks/nuns). I have read authentic books about it (authentic as in, again, by people who dedicate their lives to it full time). So I am just saying what I have heard.

I have heard of people starting koan practice (and probably shikantaza) after a minimum of a year, but that usually is after going to several meditation retreats (sesshins) which is where you meditate for 10 hours a day for 2-7 days. And it is also with advice or help of a spiritual teacher. But maybe some spiritual teachers are easier, I don't know.

I guess I get a bit riled up because so many people who think of Zen think its some kind of fluffy, wishy washy thing. Its a discipline, just like kendo is. In kendo you don't do whatever you want or however you feel. Plus, from my experiences, it IS possible to meditate incorrectly and make things worse, just like improper kendo technique (or any athletic technique) can get you injured. Though you'd have to be going at it A LOT- as in hours a day...for that risk to be an issue.

Zazen is so amazing, and I don't want anyone to be put off by it because they are doing it in a way thats not going to be helpful.

But by all means, you can always attempt shikantaza. Who knows, maybe you'll be able to do it. At least it probably won't ever be as bad as those "ninjas" who tried to train themselves to use real swords on youtube...and one got his hand cut off. It won't ever be that bad.

Most likely, at worst, you'd just give it up and stop meditating, thinking that you tried it and it wasn't helpful-(which is a shame, because few can probably do shikantaza. Few have the concentration for it until they build up enough concentration and experience, but hey, whatever floats your boat).

02-13-2011, 10:09 PM	#34
Krruqgwt Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 550 Senior Member	I don't think there's any reason to discourage someone from a certain meditative technique. That seems like me telling you, "Don't try judo, it's too difficult and you wouldn't be any good at it." Just as with martial arts, different styles work better for different people. At least with this, it's not likely someone can hurt themselves practicing meditation. Simply put, shikantaza is not a different technique in the way Judo is a different technique compared to kendo. Shikintaza is an ADVANCED type of meditation within the Zen method/technique. I don't know Judo all that well, but I am sure that there are advanced techniques within the Judo system that beginners can't expect to learn (well) on the first day. I think in kendo, most people don't learn how to tsuki someone full speed on their first day in bogu either, right? (heck, beginners don't get into bogu on their first day either). In Zen you don't go back and forth between meditation methods. You stick with one for awhile before you're ready to move onto a more difficult one. Usually, the two (more advanced) methods are either koan study or shikantaza, and a spiritual teacher will help you choose one depending in your temperament, but only when you have built up enough joriki, or concentration. If I came across as a little bit arrogant, I apologize for that. As a side note, I'm not super great at Zen...I'm kind of terrible at it actually. I just know what my teacher has told me, and what others who have been doing it for 30 plus years have said. I have been around a community of really really serious Zen practioners (people who dedicate their lives full time to it...most just vocationally, but I have also been around monks/nuns). I have read authentic books about it (authentic as in, again, by people who dedicate their lives to it full time). So I am just saying what I have heard. I have heard of people starting koan practice (and probably shikantaza) after a minimum of a year, but that usually is after going to several meditation retreats (sesshins) which is where you meditate for 10 hours a day for 2-7 days. And it is also with advice or help of a spiritual teacher. But maybe some spiritual teachers are easier, I don't know. I guess I get a bit riled up because so many people who think of Zen think its some kind of fluffy, wishy washy thing. Its a discipline, just like kendo is. In kendo you don't do whatever you want or however you feel. Plus, from my experiences, it IS possible to meditate incorrectly and make things worse, just like improper kendo technique (or any athletic technique) can get you injured. Though you'd have to be going at it A LOT- as in hours a day...for that risk to be an issue. Zazen is so amazing, and I don't want anyone to be put off by it because they are doing it in a way thats not going to be helpful. But by all means, you can always attempt shikantaza. Who knows, maybe you'll be able to do it. At least it probably won't ever be as bad as those "ninjas" who tried to train themselves to use real swords on youtube...and one got his hand cut off. It won't ever be that bad. Most likely, at worst, you'd just give it up and stop meditating, thinking that you tried it and it wasn't helpful-(which is a shame, because few can probably do shikantaza. Few have the concentration for it until they build up enough concentration and experience, but hey, whatever floats your boat).
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