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**RalfDweflywex** · 03-03-2006, 01:28 PM

Regarding ID Cards, currently if you are stopped, you could be either taken into custody for questioning or asked to go to your local police station within a certain number of days. These cards would essentially negate this requirement to go to a police station as essentially the card is bringing together current databases into a single database, rather than many which opens the chances of greater corruption and inacurracies. What I'm against is the cost and I personally believe the card should go further, ie an all encompassing passport/drivers licence, etc which again means fewer databases delays for the person in question. On the continent, ID cards have been used and Britain used to have them only until 'recently'. In the ideal world, we wouldn't need these things because nobody would do no wrong, but generally I believe the card is about the amalgamation of databases and creating a system that is less open to corrupt influences due to less access to these multiple databases.

You could not be more wrong about this and I suggest you go to http://www.no2id.net/ and explore all of the arguments.

The police have no power to take you into custody without being arrested. I don't understand what you mean about avoiding corruption as I have never encountered this in the UK. Except.....the driver vehicle & licensing agency has been illeagally selling private details of driver license holders and their vehicles to private companies. Except...the government claimed that ID cards would help combat terrorism; the London bombers were British nationals who didn't try to hide their identity and Italy, France, Spain, Germany have had ID cards for years and have had at times, chronic terrorism. Except...the government then claimed the cards were now not an effective weapon against terrorists but against the explosion in ID theft and that therefore, they were for our protection. They later had to apologise for putting out misleading and exagerted data on ID theft.

As to inaccuracy in databases you are naive in the extreme if you have confidence in their infalability. Read these forums and you will find examples of indivduals who have be renditioned by the American government and tortured in Egypt and Syria becuase thyey were erroniously on a database. Of course they can be accurate in other ways; in the last election the labour party, the party behind ID cards, used a powerful database which could predict with 94% accuracy the way housholds would vote and taget those households INDIVIDUALLY. ID cards linked to such databases could be used to curtail your travel on i.e. World Economic Forum events in i.e. Edinburgh, Arms exhibitions in London Docklands, Visits by controversial presidents, i.e. Chinese, American, labour disputes, anti government protests. You think this will never happen? It already has; inthe '80's whole towns were road blocked by the police to stop trade unionists moving around the country, Demonstrators were stopped from going to the exhibtion centres to protest about the arms industy (Britains third largest industry), during the visit of the Chinese premier the police ripped out of the hands the citical banners of protestors and held them in custody until the visit was over. During the Econimic summit last year train movements were constrained and road blocks set up to prevent people getting there from other parts of the country. ID cards and databases will enable these things to be done with surgical accuracy at the touch of a button (you will need an ID card to buy a rail/bus/plane ticket) but of course, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear and mistakes will never happen to you. Will they.

I could go on and on. In Europe they live by the old "Code Napoleon" in which the state is supreme and the citizens are subbordinate to the state. The ONE defining characteristic that generations of Britains fought for going back to magna carta and before is personal freedom in its truest sense. That the sate is subordinate to the citizen and as individuals, we have freedom to go about our business unmolested by agents of the state. It is what defines us as a nation. We gave this quality to America.

I am afraid that you just do not seem to recognise that the imposition of ID cards and their associated databases fundamentally changes these true freedoms in changing the relationship between the state and the individual. I am shocked in your bovine like complicity and acceptance of ID cards in exchange for some minor convenience in your personal life.

I for one will not be marched by a political party down to an "approved government centre" for registration, have my biometric data taken against my will and told to pay £400 for a license to live in my own country!

Costs of the ID cards have been cost by the London School of Economics at £19 billion/$33 billion, greater than NASA's space shuttle budget. The author of the authoratative LSE report into the true costs of ID cards recently stepped down citing the kind of government harrasment that led to another respected government advisor commiting suicide ove a certain Iraq (dodgy) dossier - you know who I mean....

Sorry if thise seems like a British only theme but as I said, our government says its being done partially at the behest of the US government so you ought to start asking what they have in store for you.

03-03-2006, 01:28 PM	#15
RalfDweflywex Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 578 Senior Member	Regarding ID Cards, currently if you are stopped, you could be either taken into custody for questioning or asked to go to your local police station within a certain number of days. These cards would essentially negate this requirement to go to a police station as essentially the card is bringing together current databases into a single database, rather than many which opens the chances of greater corruption and inacurracies. What I'm against is the cost and I personally believe the card should go further, ie an all encompassing passport/drivers licence, etc which again means fewer databases delays for the person in question. On the continent, ID cards have been used and Britain used to have them only until 'recently'. In the ideal world, we wouldn't need these things because nobody would do no wrong, but generally I believe the card is about the amalgamation of databases and creating a system that is less open to corrupt influences due to less access to these multiple databases. You could not be more wrong about this and I suggest you go to http://www.no2id.net/ and explore all of the arguments. The police have no power to take you into custody without being arrested. I don't understand what you mean about avoiding corruption as I have never encountered this in the UK. Except.....the driver vehicle & licensing agency has been illeagally selling private details of driver license holders and their vehicles to private companies. Except...the government claimed that ID cards would help combat terrorism; the London bombers were British nationals who didn't try to hide their identity and Italy, France, Spain, Germany have had ID cards for years and have had at times, chronic terrorism. Except...the government then claimed the cards were now not an effective weapon against terrorists but against the explosion in ID theft and that therefore, they were for our protection. They later had to apologise for putting out misleading and exagerted data on ID theft. As to inaccuracy in databases you are naive in the extreme if you have confidence in their infalability. Read these forums and you will find examples of indivduals who have be renditioned by the American government and tortured in Egypt and Syria becuase thyey were erroniously on a database. Of course they can be accurate in other ways; in the last election the labour party, the party behind ID cards, used a powerful database which could predict with 94% accuracy the way housholds would vote and taget those households INDIVIDUALLY. ID cards linked to such databases could be used to curtail your travel on i.e. World Economic Forum events in i.e. Edinburgh, Arms exhibitions in London Docklands, Visits by controversial presidents, i.e. Chinese, American, labour disputes, anti government protests. You think this will never happen? It already has; inthe '80's whole towns were road blocked by the police to stop trade unionists moving around the country, Demonstrators were stopped from going to the exhibtion centres to protest about the arms industy (Britains third largest industry), during the visit of the Chinese premier the police ripped out of the hands the citical banners of protestors and held them in custody until the visit was over. During the Econimic summit last year train movements were constrained and road blocks set up to prevent people getting there from other parts of the country. ID cards and databases will enable these things to be done with surgical accuracy at the touch of a button (you will need an ID card to buy a rail/bus/plane ticket) but of course, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear and mistakes will never happen to you. Will they. I could go on and on. In Europe they live by the old "Code Napoleon" in which the state is supreme and the citizens are subbordinate to the state. The ONE defining characteristic that generations of Britains fought for going back to magna carta and before is personal freedom in its truest sense. That the sate is subordinate to the citizen and as individuals, we have freedom to go about our business unmolested by agents of the state. It is what defines us as a nation. We gave this quality to America. I am afraid that you just do not seem to recognise that the imposition of ID cards and their associated databases fundamentally changes these true freedoms in changing the relationship between the state and the individual. I am shocked in your bovine like complicity and acceptance of ID cards in exchange for some minor convenience in your personal life. I for one will not be marched by a political party down to an "approved government centre" for registration, have my biometric data taken against my will and told to pay £400 for a license to live in my own country! Costs of the ID cards have been cost by the London School of Economics at £19 billion/$33 billion, greater than NASA's space shuttle budget. The author of the authoratative LSE report into the true costs of ID cards recently stepped down citing the kind of government harrasment that led to another respected government advisor commiting suicide ove a certain Iraq (dodgy) dossier - you know who I mean.... Sorry if thise seems like a British only theme but as I said, our government says its being done partially at the behest of the US government so you ought to start asking what they have in store for you.
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