[iiilizium]

LOL. So if we are arguing a relatively insignificant, unimportant, and meaningless concept who's only value is to randomly catagorize homo sapiens, than I am going to bed. The science community as I understand it always argues against the "la la" relativism that goes against the systematic reason, dialectics and materialism that is at the core of all science. There is a consistent method to science, a validity, reliability and ability to reproduce results. Gravity is a significant, important concept with a definite meaning. Relativity- very important. The atomic theory, laws of thermodynamics, evolution, the carbon cycle and global warming are all significant, important and have a distict meaning. Scientists are not spending a whole lot of time debating the existence of these concepts or trying to redifine terminology in order to satisfy imaginary factions of politeness police. And I have not asked for any social/philosophical meaning- just for a basic pedestrian run of the mill daily use type meaning. When have I ever cared about philosophy?

Who is this PC faction and how do they exert pressure? Things must be awefully different in Germany if people feel bullied especially in their own fields by some clandestine thought police. Who cares if anything or anyone is politically correct? People make carreers out of being politically incorrect in my country. Look at Rush Limbaugh, Howard Stern and all the other talk jockies. If they went PC they'd be off the air. Books like the Bell Curve sell millions of copies on the basis that they offend many.

Asside from Biology teachers, and my sister in law and niece, I don't know any biologists. I showed my sister in law (who has a much bigger brain than mine and is far more qualified to give answers in this field) the other thread and she laughed. Never the less however, she agree with me (but indicated that I really didn't understand what I was talking about when it came to details.) It was her suggestion that race is simply inaccurate and not specific enough to be useful. (Don't ask me why, I just left it like that.) I feel that since she has spent a great deal more time in the study of such things, that her opinion on this narrow topic is significantly more valid. I hope that's not being elitist, but I tend to go to doctors for medical opinions, mechanics for assistance with my car, and electricians for the wiring in my house. In matters relating to biology, I will consider deferring to the scientists. (with the exceptions previously stated.)

Lastly science isn't relative to geographical location. A meter is a meter. An atom an atom. If it can be measured, quantified, described and classified in Europe, it shouldn't change in Asia. The atomic theory is the same in Samoa as it is in Brazil. My point that you missed is rather simple: the use of a pre-scientific taxonomy to classify homo sapiens that is not universally agreed upon by the majority of people in the field lacks meaning. It is arbitrary. Persians are not Arabs and don't consider themselves either mongoloid or caucasoid. The three race european system is no more valid than the jewish system of dividing all of humanity into Jews and Gentiles or the Japanese system of dividing humanity into Gaijin and Nihonjin.

For a term to have meaning it must have a shared denotation (and connotation) for both the sender and reciever. Race seems to be lacking in this parameter. 17th century and antiquated refer to the basic development of race as a theory that I got from Wikipedia. That I may have been inaccurate as to the exact dating of the exact terminology does not negate the point that these were developed before the science of genetics, DNA, or genomics existed, and were developed based solely upon insignificant superficial differences such as facial structure and skin color. I'm fairly certain that every isolated population with sufficient language found a good way of classifying outsiders like this, but is that science? You pick the eurpean terminology because you are european? Is that science? It doesn't seem scientific to sub divide a species in a random way based upon a social custom dating back two or three hundred years. Neither does it seem like a scientific way of doing this if it lacks any kind of significance- if it is merely a sorting by superficial appearance. (see the quote above-- from post #6) Science and race seem to diverge here- if few can agree on the terminology or the parameters of a taxonomy than how can it be reliable, reproducable and valid? Sounds like a social construct, not like science.

Sorry for the long rambling post. It is past my bed time. (And I am way out of my circle of expertise- can't someone with a better handle on this stuff bail me out?)