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**lorryuncori** · 09-01-2012, 12:48 PM

I just don't understand one thing and it doesn't make any sense. Let say that maciamo is right and that R1b in Europe is INDO-European. How is it possible then that R1b migrated from Anatolia into Europe after J2a without mixing with local Anatolian J2a? The native J2a is even more dominant than R1b in Anatolia.

You have problems understanding this because you assume that Neolithic Anatolia was the same as it is today. Nowadays every region, city or even village in Anatolia is a mixture of all kinds of haplogroups, but things were very different 8000 years ago. Actually there is a good chance that Paleolithic and Mesolithic tribes of hunter-gatherers, small groups of a dozens or at most a few hundred people, all belonged to the same Y-DNA haplogroup, or perhaps two haplogroups (but many mtDNA haplogroups because women were exchanged between tribes or taken by the winner after a clash/war). Neolithic communities that evolved from these tribes also probably all belonged to the same haplogroup. I have always thought that, and this is exactly what we witnessed at the Treilles site in France. That's why I think that Anatolia was divided in territories, some belonging to R1b tribes, others to J2 tribes, and others to G2a tribes.

The best analogy are Amerindians tribes from North America until the European conquest. Some were nomadic, others semi-nomadic, and others settled. Most were hunter-gatherers, but a few were farmers. I believe that the situation in the Middle East at the three first millennia of agriculture (from 9,500 to 6,500 BCE) was very similar to that of Central and North America in the 16th century. Agriculture actually started in the Levant and south-central Anatolia, but didn't reach northern Anatolia until 6500 to 6000 BCE. This timing is perfect because it roughly matches the age of R1b1b2a (L23), which is the subclade that divides the Anatolia (later Greek) branch from the Indo-European steppe branch.

09-01-2012, 12:48 PM	#31
lorryuncori Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 395 Senior Member	I just don't understand one thing and it doesn't make any sense. Let say that maciamo is right and that R1b in Europe is INDO-European. How is it possible then that R1b migrated from Anatolia into Europe after J2a without mixing with local Anatolian J2a? The native J2a is even more dominant than R1b in Anatolia. You have problems understanding this because you assume that Neolithic Anatolia was the same as it is today. Nowadays every region, city or even village in Anatolia is a mixture of all kinds of haplogroups, but things were very different 8000 years ago. Actually there is a good chance that Paleolithic and Mesolithic tribes of hunter-gatherers, small groups of a dozens or at most a few hundred people, all belonged to the same Y-DNA haplogroup, or perhaps two haplogroups (but many mtDNA haplogroups because women were exchanged between tribes or taken by the winner after a clash/war). Neolithic communities that evolved from these tribes also probably all belonged to the same haplogroup. I have always thought that, and this is exactly what we witnessed at the Treilles site in France. That's why I think that Anatolia was divided in territories, some belonging to R1b tribes, others to J2 tribes, and others to G2a tribes. The best analogy are Amerindians tribes from North America until the European conquest. Some were nomadic, others semi-nomadic, and others settled. Most were hunter-gatherers, but a few were farmers. I believe that the situation in the Middle East at the three first millennia of agriculture (from 9,500 to 6,500 BCE) was very similar to that of Central and North America in the 16th century. Agriculture actually started in the Levant and south-central Anatolia, but didn't reach northern Anatolia until 6500 to 6000 BCE. This timing is perfect because it roughly matches the age of R1b1b2a (L23), which is the subclade that divides the Anatolia (later Greek) branch from the Indo-European steppe branch.
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