DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - ACLU Threatens N.J. High School With Legal Action Over Graduation at Christian-Owned

**avaiguite** · 05-17-2011, 07:56 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/17...dment-dispute/

A New Jersey high school with a 70-year tradition of hosting graduation ceremonies in a historic auditorium is standing firm against legal threats from the American Civil Liberties Union, which claims the event violates the separation of church and state because of the Christian-owned site's religious displays.

The ACLU of New Jersey threatened legal action against the Neptune school district after an attendee at last year’s graduation ceremony took offense to the building’s religious symbols and Christian-based references -- among them a 20-foot white cross above the auditorium’s entrance. The ACLU asked the school to remove or cover up the cross and three other religious signs, arguing their visibility during a public school event is a First Amendment violation.

So after 70 years and one person complains, it's now an issue? I'm no fan of religion but having a graduation ceremony in this building doesn't seem to me to violate the First Amendment (since there's no such thing as separation of church and state IN the Constitution).

Religion in the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

In the end, the 1st Amendment not only prevents the establishment of a national religion, but it also prohibits government aid to any religion, even on an non-preferential basis, as well as protecting the right of the individual to choose to worship, or not, as he or she sees fit.

The Bill of Rights, however, had no effect on how a state treated its churches. Unlike today, the Bill of Rights applied only to the rules and laws of the federal government. The states were still free to establish churches, to direct church taxes be paid, and to even require attendance in church, all within the bounds of the state's own constitution. As noted, many did. While the "free exercise" clause is undoubtedly referring to an individual right, the "establishment" clause refers to a state power. This clause not only prohibited the federal government from establishing a national religion, it prevented the federal government from forcing a state to disestablish any state religion.
--from http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_reli.html

So does this mean originally it was only meant that the federal government couldn't dictate religion but states could? Obviously that doesn't happen at either level today.

I just don't see how holding a graduation ceremony in a building that has a cross on it makes it religious.

The school did the following already:

School officials responded by agreeing to change the graduation program to remove the student-led invocation and two hymns -- one titled “Onward Christian Soldiers” -- to rid the ceremony of any religious references.

“The program was not of a religious nature -- it was more tradition than anything else,” said Neptune Public Schools Superintendent David Mooij. “But we decided we would change the program and delete the things this individual found offensive.”

So they already made the actual ceremony void of any religious - well anything.

Mooij said the ACLU then requested that the school change its venue for the June 17 graduation – a move he said isn’t feasible. “We already printed 3,000 tickets, and there’s no comparable size venue anywhere around us.”

Is the ACLU or the person who complained going to pay for any changes of venue, etc?

The Great Auditorium, a nationally recognized landmark, is steeped in history. The building has hosted Ulysses S. Grant and six other U.S. presidents, as well as 27 of New Jersey’s governors. Mark Twain was a member of the auditorium’s board of directors, and religious leaders like the Rev. Billy Graham have spoken there.

If it's a landmark then what's the issue? What landmarks don't have religious overtones in them in the US depending on how old they are.

It's just a place to hold graduation. When I graduated, if we had to have it in one of the churches vice the high school gym, oh well. Just ignore the cross, ignore the two signs. There are a lot of landmarks and old churches that I appreciate for their architectural value. It's just a place to hold graduation and the ceremony itself has no religion in it.

05-17-2011, 07:56 PM	#1
avaiguite Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 489 Senior Member	ACLU Threatens N.J. High School With Legal Action Over Graduation at Christian-Owned http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/17...dment-dispute/ A New Jersey high school with a 70-year tradition of hosting graduation ceremonies in a historic auditorium is standing firm against legal threats from the American Civil Liberties Union, which claims the event violates the separation of church and state because of the Christian-owned site's religious displays. The ACLU of New Jersey threatened legal action against the Neptune school district after an attendee at last year’s graduation ceremony took offense to the building’s religious symbols and Christian-based references -- among them a 20-foot white cross above the auditorium’s entrance. The ACLU asked the school to remove or cover up the cross and three other religious signs, arguing their visibility during a public school event is a First Amendment violation. So after 70 years and one person complains, it's now an issue? I'm no fan of religion but having a graduation ceremony in this building doesn't seem to me to violate the First Amendment (since there's no such thing as separation of church and state IN the Constitution). Religion in the First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. In the end, the 1st Amendment not only prevents the establishment of a national religion, but it also prohibits government aid to any religion, even on an non-preferential basis, as well as protecting the right of the individual to choose to worship, or not, as he or she sees fit. The Bill of Rights, however, had no effect on how a state treated its churches. Unlike today, the Bill of Rights applied only to the rules and laws of the federal government. The states were still free to establish churches, to direct church taxes be paid, and to even require attendance in church, all within the bounds of the state's own constitution. As noted, many did. While the "free exercise" clause is undoubtedly referring to an individual right, the "establishment" clause refers to a state power. This clause not only prohibited the federal government from establishing a national religion, it prevented the federal government from forcing a state to disestablish any state religion. --from http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_reli.html So does this mean originally it was only meant that the federal government couldn't dictate religion but states could? Obviously that doesn't happen at either level today. I just don't see how holding a graduation ceremony in a building that has a cross on it makes it religious. The school did the following already: School officials responded by agreeing to change the graduation program to remove the student-led invocation and two hymns -- one titled “Onward Christian Soldiers” -- to rid the ceremony of any religious references. “The program was not of a religious nature -- it was more tradition than anything else,” said Neptune Public Schools Superintendent David Mooij. “But we decided we would change the program and delete the things this individual found offensive.” So they already made the actual ceremony void of any religious - well anything. Mooij said the ACLU then requested that the school change its venue for the June 17 graduation – a move he said isn’t feasible. “We already printed 3,000 tickets, and there’s no comparable size venue anywhere around us.” Is the ACLU or the person who complained going to pay for any changes of venue, etc? The Great Auditorium, a nationally recognized landmark, is steeped in history. The building has hosted Ulysses S. Grant and six other U.S. presidents, as well as 27 of New Jersey’s governors. Mark Twain was a member of the auditorium’s board of directors, and religious leaders like the Rev. Billy Graham have spoken there. If it's a landmark then what's the issue? What landmarks don't have religious overtones in them in the US depending on how old they are. It's just a place to hold graduation. When I graduated, if we had to have it in one of the churches vice the high school gym, oh well. Just ignore the cross, ignore the two signs. There are a lot of landmarks and old churches that I appreciate for their architectural value. It's just a place to hold graduation and the ceremony itself has no religion in it.
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