[freddyujnf]

Asslamo Allaikum,

I have been thinking about this long and hard.

I quoted the following to Sr Musleemah about not debating about the meaning:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...6&postcount=62

To which she replied:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...&postcount=116

Her reply perhaps explain the quote of Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal (RA) but not the second one by Abu Muhammad Ibn Qudama A-Mqadisi (RA) because it says about all which is mentioned in the Qur'aan and Authentic traditions and Shaykh (RA) says to affirm the word and not to engage in discussions about meanings and that is precisely what we udnerstand "Dhahir" to be :


لمعة الاعتقاد الهادي إلى سبيل الرشاد
أبو محمد بن قدامة المقدسي

وكل ما جاء في القرآن أو صح عن المصطفى عليه السلام صفات الرحمن وجب الإيمان به وتلقيه بالتسليم والقبول وترك التعرض له بالرد والتأويل والتشبيه والتمثيل وما أشكل من ذلك وجب إثباته لفظا وترك التعرض لمعناه ونرد علمه إلى قائله ونجعل عهدته على ناقله اتباعا لطريق الراسخين في العلم الذين أثنى الله عليهم في كتابه المبين بقوله سبحانه وتعالى ‏‏(والراسخون في العلم يقولون آمنا به كل من عند ربنا)‏‏ آل عمران 7 وقال في ذم مبتغي التأويل لمتشابه تنزيله فأما الذين في قلوبهم زيغ فيتبعون ما تشابه منه ابتغاء الفتنة وابتغاء تأويله وما يعلم تأويله إلا الله آل عمران 7 فجعل ابتغاء التأويل علامة على الزيغ وقرنه بابتغاء الفتنة في الذم ثم حجبهم عما أملوه وقطع أطماعهم عما قصدوه بقوله سبحانه وما يعلم تأويله إلا الله ‏.‏
The Salafees disagree with this definition of Dhahir and says that it means to affirm the word and to give it a meaning.

I honestly don't believe that there is any evidence of debating with someone who is affirming the word and consigning the meaning (without denying that meaning exists) to Allah (SWT).

These deabtes will never end and people will provide quotes to back their respective position so this thread isn't designed to start a debate, rather how to come to common grounds (for laymen) who are not well versed in these issues (such as myself to start with).

The issue of Istiwa of Allah (SWT) is dealt with in here:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46114

The second Fatwa very clearly negates the inclination of assigning a physical direction and that is the whole bone of contention.

Allah (SWT) knows best.

P.S: We (Muslims) can't agree but perhaps we can come to common ground.

Still looking for errors in what I have written, Insha'Allah

Dear Brother Muad, Assalaamoalaikum.

Alhamdulillah. Your intention to find a common ground for all of us , muslims, on issues such as the one relating to the attributes of Allah(SWT) is indeed commending. May Allah(SWT) reward you for this. Insh’Allah.

However, I wish to submit the following more as food for thought rather than for discussion, and hope that all our brothers & sisters on SF will benefit.

When we read that Allah(SWT) is All-Hearing and All-Seeing, for example, we, as muslims, say “We hear and obey”. This means that we accept unconditionally that Allah(SWT) hears everything and sees everything – just as He says. This, in my interpretation, is what we mean by saying that we confirm the Words of Allah(SWT). We muslims, believe that He sees everything that we do and Hears everything that we say with our mouth or with our heart – whether we pronounce the words in a low or loud voice or whether we just think of the words without even muttering them. In fact this idea is reflected in the following anecdote:

“ A teacher gave something to each of his pupils and asked them to go and hide it somewhere such that no one would be able to find it. After some time the children came back. One of the children still had the object in its hands. Questioned by the teacher as to why it still had the object when it should have been hidden somewhere, the child answered that it found nowhere to hide it such that even Allah(SWT) would not be able to see it.” MashaAllah.

This anecdote indicates that the child confirmed the Words of Allah(SWT) that He is the All-Seeing. The child did not assign any meaning to the “All-Seeing” Attribute of Allah(SWT). The child heard and accepted. No meaning assigned.

It is the same with us. By accepting the Words of Allah(SWT) as muslims, we confirm the Words of Allah(SWT). This acceptance , this confirmation, is our Imaan.

However, our human curiosity, some would say shaytaan, leads us to asking ourselves questions like “Does Allah(SWT) Sees everything at any point in time?”, “ How is that?”, “Does Allah(SWT) Hears everything at any point in time?”, “How is that?”, “Does Allah(SWT) have ears and eyes as we do?” This is trying to assign meanings to the Attributes of Allah(SWT). There is no doubt that there are meanings to Allah’s Words. But is it necessary to look into the meanings? Is it necessary to explain His Attributes? This is where all the problems lie.

I have gone through the other posts on this thread, and have come through various opinions coloured with all sorts of terms, all trying to justify a particular position on the issue. Such discussions have been on-going for the past 1400 years and we come back with the same multi-reasoning and with the same multi-conclusions. Same will continue upto the Last Day and still the FINAL & CORRECT answer will not have been found. The reason is simple: “How can we, with our human-limited knowledge, reach a stage where we can with confidence say that this is what explains Allah’s (SWT) Attributes? This is how He Hears. This is how He Sees. The answer(s) is / are not in the books. The answers are in the Holy Qur’an. But these answers can only be found through His Guidance. It is, therefore, most futile for us to go looking for meanings. Unless Guided by Allah(SWT) it is simply impossible to come up with any meanings. From what I have read so far ( not only on SF), everyone who has assigned meanings has come to the wrong conclusions. And yet, how much division these issues have caused / cause among the Ummah. Why can’t we realize this? Why can’t we obey Allah(SWT) and stop asking questions of which we have no Knowledge?

So, is it then not wise (in the interest of the Ummah) to ACCEPT / CONFIRM the Words and leave the meanings to Allah(SWT) Who Alone knows how His Attributes Operate? The meanings are there, no doubt. But we simply plead guilty to our not knowing what these meanings may be.

Brother Muad, since you say that you have been thinking very hard about this issue with the obvious intention of bringing the Ummah together (finding a common ground), may I just impart to you one hint that could, Insh’Allah, be the click that could lead you to progress in your quest, Insh’Allah. Other hints are in the Holy Qur’an.

Food for thought: IS IT NECESSARY TO HAVE A MOUTH TO SPEAK?

Brotherly yours
farook