DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - 3 min discussion with a Salafi about attributes of Allah (SWT).

**zoppiklonikaa** · 09-04-2012, 03:57 AM

Dear Brother Muad, Assalaamoalaikum.

Alhamdulillah. Your intention to find a common ground for all of us , muslims, on issues such as the one relating to the attributes of Allah(SWT) is indeed commending. May Allah(SWT) reward you for this. Insh’Allah.

However, I wish to submit the following more as food for thought rather than for discussion, and hope that all our brothers & sisters on SF will benefit.

When we read that Allah(SWT) is All-Hearing and All-Seeing, for example, we, as muslims, say “We hear and obey”. This means that we accept unconditionally that Allah(SWT) hears everything and sees everything – just as He says. This, in my interpretation, is what we mean by saying that we confirm the Words of Allah(SWT). We muslims, believe that He sees everything that we do and Hears everything that we say with our mouth or with our heart – whether we pronounce the words in a low or loud voice or whether we just think of the words without even muttering them. In fact this idea is reflected in the following anecdote:

“ A teacher gave something to each of his pupils and asked them to go and hide it somewhere such that no one would be able to find it. After some time the children came back. One of the children still had the object in its hands. Questioned by the teacher as to why it still had the object when it should have been hidden somewhere, the child answered that it found nowhere to hide it such that even Allah(SWT) would not be able to see it.” MashaAllah.

This anecdote indicates that the child confirmed the Words of Allah(SWT) that He is the All-Seeing. The child did not assign any meaning to the “All-Seeing” Attribute of Allah(SWT). The child heard and accepted. No meaning assigned.

It is the same with us. By accepting the Words of Allah(SWT) as muslims, we confirm the Words of Allah(SWT). This acceptance , this confirmation, is our Imaan.

However, our human curiosity, some would say shaytaan, leads us to asking ourselves questions like “Does Allah(SWT) Sees everything at any point in time?”, “ How is that?”, “Does Allah(SWT) Hears everything at any point in time?”, “How is that?”, “Does Allah(SWT) have ears and eyes as we do?” This is trying to assign meanings to the Attributes of Allah(SWT). There is no doubt that there are meanings to Allah’s Words. But is it necessary to look into the meanings? Is it necessary to explain His Attributes? This is where all the problems lie.

I have gone through the other posts on this thread, and have come through various opinions coloured with all sorts of terms, all trying to justify a particular position on the issue. Such discussions have been on-going for the past 1400 years and we come back with the same multi-reasoning and with the same multi-conclusions. Same will continue upto the Last Day and still the FINAL & CORRECT answer will not have been found. The reason is simple: “How can we, with our human-limited knowledge, reach a stage where we can with confidence say that this is what explains Allah’s (SWT) Attributes? This is how He Hears. This is how He Sees. The answer(s) is / are not in the books. The answers are in the Holy Qur’an. But these answers can only be found through His Guidance. It is, therefore, most futile for us to go looking for meanings. Unless Guided by Allah(SWT) it is simply impossible to come up with any meanings. From what I have read so far ( not only on SF), everyone who has assigned meanings has come to the wrong conclusions. And yet, how much division these issues have caused / cause among the Ummah. Why can’t we realize this? Why can’t we obey Allah(SWT) and stop asking questions of which we have no Knowledge?

So, is it then not wise (in the interest of the Ummah) to ACCEPT / CONFIRM the Words and leave the meanings to Allah(SWT) Who Alone knows how His Attributes Operate? The meanings are there, no doubt. But we simply plead guilty to our not knowing what these meanings may be.

Brother Muad, since you say that you have been thinking very hard about this issue with the obvious intention of bringing the Ummah together (finding a common ground), may I just impart to you one hint that could, Insh’Allah, be the click that could lead you to progress in your quest, Insh’Allah. Other hints are in the Holy Qur’an.

Food for thought: IS IT NECESSARY TO HAVE A MOUTH TO SPEAK?

Brotherly yours
farook

W_Salam,

Masha’Allah very insightful and useful comments.

I have carefully read and analysed the comments of the Salafi brother and his objections and I am afraid that his “objections” have nothing to do with the mock-up dialogue and discussion in the first thread, rather he is intent on making people comment on Ashari/Maturidi Ta’weel and ensuring that a laymen MUST PASS a ruling (to his liking) on the matter of making Ta’weel.

This is precisely what the Salafees do e.g. try to put words in your mouth, catch you out or INSIST that you comment on Islamic history and the positions of all the scholars which is beyond the realm of a laymen and this is an area which people should avoid.

No doubt, that scholars have differed on the matter over centuries and a person is NOT REQUIRED to condemn or condone or even accurately know the position of various scholars of Islam. The Aqeedah war on Internet forums is nothing more than providing quotes and counter-quotes and some of these quotes are from unstable political times.

A lay person is responsible for his/her words and actions and it is NOT A REQUIREMENT for them to be issuing Fatwaas on others.

I have also read the comments on Non-Salafees and so far no objection on the dialogue either.

I thoroughly accept the fact that a person can affirm and believe in the attributes of Allah (SWT) without delving into either the meaning or the modality of it. Parents tell their children all the time when they are being Naughty “Allah (SWT) is watching you or don’t lie Allah (SWT) knows everything” and the little child is able to grasp that fact instinctively without delving into the details of it.
We can either affirm our belief in the attributes of Allah (SWT) OR continue to rip apart Islamic history and attempt to condemn or condone Islamic scholars based on insufficient knowledge.

If the Salafi brother wants to stick to the subject and provide feedback/objections pertinent to the matter at hand, it will be useful. So far he has done nothing in the two threads in which he has participated which is worth an Academic reply.

09-04-2012, 03:57 AM	#38
zoppiklonikaa Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 333 Senior Member	Dear Brother Muad, Assalaamoalaikum. Alhamdulillah. Your intention to find a common ground for all of us , muslims, on issues such as the one relating to the attributes of Allah(SWT) is indeed commending. May Allah(SWT) reward you for this. Insh’Allah. However, I wish to submit the following more as food for thought rather than for discussion, and hope that all our brothers & sisters on SF will benefit. When we read that Allah(SWT) is All-Hearing and All-Seeing, for example, we, as muslims, say “We hear and obey”. This means that we accept unconditionally that Allah(SWT) hears everything and sees everything – just as He says. This, in my interpretation, is what we mean by saying that we confirm the Words of Allah(SWT). We muslims, believe that He sees everything that we do and Hears everything that we say with our mouth or with our heart – whether we pronounce the words in a low or loud voice or whether we just think of the words without even muttering them. In fact this idea is reflected in the following anecdote: “ A teacher gave something to each of his pupils and asked them to go and hide it somewhere such that no one would be able to find it. After some time the children came back. One of the children still had the object in its hands. Questioned by the teacher as to why it still had the object when it should have been hidden somewhere, the child answered that it found nowhere to hide it such that even Allah(SWT) would not be able to see it.” MashaAllah. This anecdote indicates that the child confirmed the Words of Allah(SWT) that He is the All-Seeing. The child did not assign any meaning to the “All-Seeing” Attribute of Allah(SWT). The child heard and accepted. No meaning assigned. It is the same with us. By accepting the Words of Allah(SWT) as muslims, we confirm the Words of Allah(SWT). This acceptance , this confirmation, is our Imaan. However, our human curiosity, some would say shaytaan, leads us to asking ourselves questions like “Does Allah(SWT) Sees everything at any point in time?”, “ How is that?”, “Does Allah(SWT) Hears everything at any point in time?”, “How is that?”, “Does Allah(SWT) have ears and eyes as we do?” This is trying to assign meanings to the Attributes of Allah(SWT). There is no doubt that there are meanings to Allah’s Words. But is it necessary to look into the meanings? Is it necessary to explain His Attributes? This is where all the problems lie. I have gone through the other posts on this thread, and have come through various opinions coloured with all sorts of terms, all trying to justify a particular position on the issue. Such discussions have been on-going for the past 1400 years and we come back with the same multi-reasoning and with the same multi-conclusions. Same will continue upto the Last Day and still the FINAL & CORRECT answer will not have been found. The reason is simple: “How can we, with our human-limited knowledge, reach a stage where we can with confidence say that this is what explains Allah’s (SWT) Attributes? This is how He Hears. This is how He Sees. The answer(s) is / are not in the books. The answers are in the Holy Qur’an. But these answers can only be found through His Guidance. It is, therefore, most futile for us to go looking for meanings. Unless Guided by Allah(SWT) it is simply impossible to come up with any meanings. From what I have read so far ( not only on SF), everyone who has assigned meanings has come to the wrong conclusions. And yet, how much division these issues have caused / cause among the Ummah. Why can’t we realize this? Why can’t we obey Allah(SWT) and stop asking questions of which we have no Knowledge? So, is it then not wise (in the interest of the Ummah) to ACCEPT / CONFIRM the Words and leave the meanings to Allah(SWT) Who Alone knows how His Attributes Operate? The meanings are there, no doubt. But we simply plead guilty to our not knowing what these meanings may be. Brother Muad, since you say that you have been thinking very hard about this issue with the obvious intention of bringing the Ummah together (finding a common ground), may I just impart to you one hint that could, Insh’Allah, be the click that could lead you to progress in your quest, Insh’Allah. Other hints are in the Holy Qur’an. Food for thought: IS IT NECESSARY TO HAVE A MOUTH TO SPEAK? Brotherly yours farook W_Salam, Masha’Allah very insightful and useful comments. I have carefully read and analysed the comments of the Salafi brother and his objections and I am afraid that his “objections” have nothing to do with the mock-up dialogue and discussion in the first thread, rather he is intent on making people comment on Ashari/Maturidi Ta’weel and ensuring that a laymen MUST PASS a ruling (to his liking) on the matter of making Ta’weel. This is precisely what the Salafees do e.g. try to put words in your mouth, catch you out or INSIST that you comment on Islamic history and the positions of all the scholars which is beyond the realm of a laymen and this is an area which people should avoid. No doubt, that scholars have differed on the matter over centuries and a person is NOT REQUIRED to condemn or condone or even accurately know the position of various scholars of Islam. The Aqeedah war on Internet forums is nothing more than providing quotes and counter-quotes and some of these quotes are from unstable political times. A lay person is responsible for his/her words and actions and it is NOT A REQUIREMENT for them to be issuing Fatwaas on others. I have also read the comments on Non-Salafees and so far no objection on the dialogue either. I thoroughly accept the fact that a person can affirm and believe in the attributes of Allah (SWT) without delving into either the meaning or the modality of it. Parents tell their children all the time when they are being Naughty “Allah (SWT) is watching you or don’t lie Allah (SWT) knows everything” and the little child is able to grasp that fact instinctively without delving into the details of it. We can either affirm our belief in the attributes of Allah (SWT) OR continue to rip apart Islamic history and attempt to condemn or condone Islamic scholars based on insufficient knowledge. If the Salafi brother wants to stick to the subject and provide feedback/objections pertinent to the matter at hand, it will be useful. So far he has done nothing in the two threads in which he has participated which is worth an Academic reply.
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