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**VYholden** · 09-04-2012, 03:57 AM

First and foremost, it must be borne in mind that Islam does not condone killing a human being in a society except as a (Hadd) punishment of one the crimes noted above. There can be exceptions made by the ruler / authority under certain cases where the severity of a crime may warrant ending a life, for example in a case where a pedophile abuses a number of children and letting them die by torturing them. I mention this because it actually happened in Pakistan some 10-11 years ago. In this case, although a Hadd may not be applied directly, but the ruler can punish the perpetrator to death (by a number of means) as a Ta'zeer. Besides the ruler or their representative, no one is authorized to dole out punishments (whether in the name of Islam or not). Anyone who ends a human life, will be subjected to the same fate (one exception under normal circumstances is a father who kills his son / daughter).

As for the question of what should be done in such cases, certainly not killing the woman. If she is still living with her family, she could be talked out of it. They may impose some restrictions on her after consultation with Ulama (although the restrictions recommended by Islam should be enough to begin with), that would limit her movement and access. (NOTE: This would be a crime in most countries today, though, especially the West and if reported, could get the family in legal trouble. It's open to argument whether a Muslim should choose to live in a society where Islamic values and/or practices are looked down upon, or even get him in legal trouble if report to the authorities.)

1. The girl wanting to marry a guy and insisting on it against the wishes of her father and their extended family and tribe coming to know of the dispute.

This is the less severe of the two issues and I am sure this could be resolved with some negotiation, provided both parties are willing to yield a bit.

2. A wife/daughter/sister having an affair with a man, and her father/husband/brother have to hear insults from people.

Again, I can't fathom how this warrants killing the woman (and the man she is involved with, as is done in Sindh province of Pakistan, which they call Karo-Kari). Her male guardians share the responsibility equally if not more. How did it come to this, if they didn't fail to observe the prevention and deterrence guidelines laid out by Islam? And how did they fail to notice the before others, to the extent that it is making rounds in their respective circles? Brother, what we all need is fear of Allah, and in quite an abundance. It's a pity that those who commit these honor killings don't bat an eye until after it's too late. You have listed many different cases: those of a father, a brother and a husband. The most embarrassing would be that of a husband whose wife is cheating him. He can divorce her, or have Li'aan in case he caught her in the act. If he still has to face embarrassment from people (which would be Haraam on their part), remember, going on to kill her would bring even more embarrassment and shame on the Day of Judgement, because what he did was to pacify his Nafs, and not fulfill the command of Allah SWT. Sure, the woman has gone astray, but don't the men do too? Just for the sake of argument, Ulama declare backbiting (gheebah) as a worse sin than adultery, although there is no Hadd for it.

Dear brother, I know and understand that these so called honor killings are common amongst Muslims (and not limited only to Pakistan; these are quite prevalent in Arabs too, and even in the Western countries. However, most of these killers are not really observant Muslims), and in my opinion, the best approach is enlightening people both with knowledge of Deen, as well as the desire to follow it with the fear of Allah SWT. It is basically due to lack of proper education and understanding as well as preferring their customs and honor codes over the laws of Allah SWT that people go to the extremes they do.

I do not wish to enter or start an argument, and I kind of regret that I have written as much as I did. As you can guess from my number of posts, I do not contribute to the forum except once in a blue moon. It's just that the thread caught my eye, and it was probably more to satisfy my own desire to write than anything else that I posted the original reply.

I may not contribute to this discussion any further.

09-04-2012, 03:57 AM	#26
VYholden Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 635 Senior Member	First and foremost, it must be borne in mind that Islam does not condone killing a human being in a society except as a (Hadd) punishment of one the crimes noted above. There can be exceptions made by the ruler / authority under certain cases where the severity of a crime may warrant ending a life, for example in a case where a pedophile abuses a number of children and letting them die by torturing them. I mention this because it actually happened in Pakistan some 10-11 years ago. In this case, although a Hadd may not be applied directly, but the ruler can punish the perpetrator to death (by a number of means) as a Ta'zeer. Besides the ruler or their representative, no one is authorized to dole out punishments (whether in the name of Islam or not). Anyone who ends a human life, will be subjected to the same fate (one exception under normal circumstances is a father who kills his son / daughter). As for the question of what should be done in such cases, certainly not killing the woman. If she is still living with her family, she could be talked out of it. They may impose some restrictions on her after consultation with Ulama (although the restrictions recommended by Islam should be enough to begin with), that would limit her movement and access. (NOTE: This would be a crime in most countries today, though, especially the West and if reported, could get the family in legal trouble. It's open to argument whether a Muslim should choose to live in a society where Islamic values and/or practices are looked down upon, or even get him in legal trouble if report to the authorities.) 1. The girl wanting to marry a guy and insisting on it against the wishes of her father and their extended family and tribe coming to know of the dispute. This is the less severe of the two issues and I am sure this could be resolved with some negotiation, provided both parties are willing to yield a bit. 2. A wife/daughter/sister having an affair with a man, and her father/husband/brother have to hear insults from people. Again, I can't fathom how this warrants killing the woman (and the man she is involved with, as is done in Sindh province of Pakistan, which they call Karo-Kari). Her male guardians share the responsibility equally if not more. How did it come to this, if they didn't fail to observe the prevention and deterrence guidelines laid out by Islam? And how did they fail to notice the before others, to the extent that it is making rounds in their respective circles? Brother, what we all need is fear of Allah, and in quite an abundance. It's a pity that those who commit these honor killings don't bat an eye until after it's too late. You have listed many different cases: those of a father, a brother and a husband. The most embarrassing would be that of a husband whose wife is cheating him. He can divorce her, or have Li'aan in case he caught her in the act. If he still has to face embarrassment from people (which would be Haraam on their part), remember, going on to kill her would bring even more embarrassment and shame on the Day of Judgement, because what he did was to pacify his Nafs, and not fulfill the command of Allah SWT. Sure, the woman has gone astray, but don't the men do too? Just for the sake of argument, Ulama declare backbiting (gheebah) as a worse sin than adultery, although there is no Hadd for it. Dear brother, I know and understand that these so called honor killings are common amongst Muslims (and not limited only to Pakistan; these are quite prevalent in Arabs too, and even in the Western countries. However, most of these killers are not really observant Muslims), and in my opinion, the best approach is enlightening people both with knowledge of Deen, as well as the desire to follow it with the fear of Allah SWT. It is basically due to lack of proper education and understanding as well as preferring their customs and honor codes over the laws of Allah SWT that people go to the extremes they do. I do not wish to enter or start an argument, and I kind of regret that I have written as much as I did. As you can guess from my number of posts, I do not contribute to the forum except once in a blue moon. It's just that the thread caught my eye, and it was probably more to satisfy my own desire to write than anything else that I posted the original reply. I may not contribute to this discussion any further.
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