DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Perennialism is kufr

**erroxiainsona** · 09-04-2012, 03:57 AM

Bro Saad for your brief concise reply.

respected brother Al-Faruqi for your conscientiously detailed reply:

I know this misconception too, as far as I experienced it seems to be advocated by a certain group called "nur cemat" which has its origins in Turkey. So far, I heard it only from followers of this group.

They also misguide their followers into basically believing that shaving the beard is okay, they propagate a shi'a dua book, etc.. There is number of problems with this group.

(The above statements are based on the experiences which I have made with many of their followers in different cities in Germany. (It was not just one guy))

There is nothing wrong with stating the facts and realities:
Someone who denies Islam or a part of it is a kafir - very clear.

The Christians and Jews are kuffar.

The Ahlu Kitab (above) are kuffar.

The Quranites (Hadith rejectors) are kuffar.

The Atheists, Communists etc. are kuffar.

The Qadianis (Ahmadiyya) are kuffar.

Those fighting against Islam are kuffar.

Those fighting with the crusaders against Islam are kuffar.

Also read
http://askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?a...8dc21dda25cb7a
http://askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?a...36bbc8fd53d7a1
http://askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?a...3f0a07c9f6e967
http://askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?a...f94fe7a1dc3672

Sister kayra, I would advise you to buy a book called "The Reliance of the Traveler".
It is a Shafi'i fiqh book, but it contains many essentially useful texts/explanations/articles about topics which are common to all madhhabs and relevant for the common Muslim. (It is available on Amazon) The author, Shaykh Nuh Keller, is a reconvert to Islam who studied Islam and is now an internationally acknowledged scholar and shaykh of Tasawwuf. He follows the Shafi'i madhhab and Shadhili tariqa. May Allah protect him and reward his precious work done for this deen. Amin.

The belief of Ahlu-Sunnah wal Jama'ah concerning this issue is basically:
As long as the person does not deem it allowed (halal) to do a prohibited deed (e.g drink alcohol) he/she will still be a Muslim. But in this case he/she will be an open sinner (fasiq).

A Munafiq is someone with nifaq, i.e. someone who conceals his kufr.
A Mushrik is someone who does shirk, i.e. associating partners with Allah.

Kufr could be approximately translated as "covering the truth", i.e. it means denial
Kuffar is the plural of kafir.

May Allah Most High protect us from these evils and keep our Iman at safety. Amin.

And Allah knows best!

EDIT: Brother Taymullah from Eurabia made a good point.

Somehow or other I'm going to have to re-learn almost everything from scratch - for the second time!

Could it be that one of the reasons that people are so relaxed about the beard issue in Turkey is because they HAVE to be, because otherwise they are branded anti-Ataturk traitors - forget the fact that they can'T work for the state, and all imams and muftis are forbidden to have beards? I'm trying to make husnu-zan here (good assumptions!!).

Can the breakdown of one major Sunnah trigger the breakdown of many other Sunnah, Vajip and Fardh, like dominos? We see it indivivually - could it happen collectively as well, so that banning one Sunnah could trigger the abandoning and neglecting of many Sunnah and Fardh - even embarrassment about associating with people who say loudly "Bismillahirrahmanirrahim" frequently!!

It seems that I hear so many people say, in response to one of my "is so-and-so fardh/ haram/ halal" questions - "Well, look at ME, I only go to the mosque at Ramazan, it's a miracle that we even perform Salah nowadays, our Prophet

predicted that these days would come, it's a sign of the times... May Allah forgive us *sigh*".... Like, "Hey, in an ideal world we'd all follow the Sunnah, but what can we do, this breakdown of Islam was pre-ordained, we're just victims!"

It's got to the point where I hardly dare open my mouth to ask or talk about Sunnah or Sharia, for fear of appearing to be criticizing the entire nation, their government, their revered dead leaders, their traditions, their families, their role models, etc.

As for perennialism - here it's called "ilm-i siyaset", as far as I can see. Intentional and wise diplomacy. Not antagonizing the non-Muslims, the liberal Muslims, the atheists, the potential Muslims. Not "scaring people off" by growing beards or wearing hijab, not "putting people off our religion", not "giving the impression that we're fanatics/ uneducated/ ignorant/ anti-Western/ whatever." On a personal interaction level, not "risking being the cause of the person's nafs to rebel by advising good or warning against bad".

So it seems that widespread perennialism results in a very strange, topsy-turvy kind of situation. Good is bad, religion is tolerated, Sunnah is old-fashioned and embarassing, Sharia is fanatical and extremist, and YOU ARE A POTENTIAL SINNER to outwardly support these things (because you might put other Muslims off Islam).

I'm not talking about rushing around waving a sword and screaming "Death to all kaffir!!" I'm talking about hesitatingly suggesting that maybe it might be a good thing to spend less time with drunken, foul-mouthed non-Muslims, for example.

Aaargh. May Allah grant me the wisdom, and wise friends, to help me sort out the extremists from the devout, the tolerant from the deviant. And to find role-models who please Him, and to be a good role-model myself eventually one day, Insh'Allah.

Sorry to rant so much. Feeling impotent, and pretty much a geographical minority of one person at the moment. It's hard to convince oneself that ones (new!) beliefs are correct when everybody around you condemns them. If it weren't for my SF family, I'd probably have concluded that humility demanded that I accept that other people around me are wiser than me (which they no doubt are, but maybe a little misguided??).

To summarize: should I conclude that the majority of Muslims around me (let's forget the non-Muslims for the moment) are not presenting a good example - with regards to perennialism, for instance? Wouldn't this be a judgmental and arrogant conclusion? And if all these "tolerant" Muslims are bad role models, who should a revert sister's role models be? The wives of our prophet

, who lived and died so many centuries ago?

And -

How do you know the difference between tolerance/ good manners and perennialism?

09-04-2012, 03:57 AM	#29
erroxiainsona Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 397 Senior Member	Bro Saad for your brief concise reply. respected brother Al-Faruqi for your conscientiously detailed reply: I know this misconception too, as far as I experienced it seems to be advocated by a certain group called "nur cemat" which has its origins in Turkey. So far, I heard it only from followers of this group. They also misguide their followers into basically believing that shaving the beard is okay, they propagate a shi'a dua book, etc.. There is number of problems with this group. (The above statements are based on the experiences which I have made with many of their followers in different cities in Germany. (It was not just one guy)) There is nothing wrong with stating the facts and realities: Someone who denies Islam or a part of it is a kafir - very clear. The Christians and Jews are kuffar. The Ahlu Kitab (above) are kuffar. The Quranites (Hadith rejectors) are kuffar. The Atheists, Communists etc. are kuffar. The Qadianis (Ahmadiyya) are kuffar. Those fighting against Islam are kuffar. Those fighting with the crusaders against Islam are kuffar. Also read http://askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?a...8dc21dda25cb7a http://askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?a...36bbc8fd53d7a1 http://askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?a...3f0a07c9f6e967 http://askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?a...f94fe7a1dc3672 Sister kayra, I would advise you to buy a book called "The Reliance of the Traveler". It is a Shafi'i fiqh book, but it contains many essentially useful texts/explanations/articles about topics which are common to all madhhabs and relevant for the common Muslim. (It is available on Amazon) The author, Shaykh Nuh Keller, is a reconvert to Islam who studied Islam and is now an internationally acknowledged scholar and shaykh of Tasawwuf. He follows the Shafi'i madhhab and Shadhili tariqa. May Allah protect him and reward his precious work done for this deen. Amin. The belief of Ahlu-Sunnah wal Jama'ah concerning this issue is basically: As long as the person does not deem it allowed (halal) to do a prohibited deed (e.g drink alcohol) he/she will still be a Muslim. But in this case he/she will be an open sinner (fasiq). A Munafiq is someone with nifaq, i.e. someone who conceals his kufr. A Mushrik is someone who does shirk, i.e. associating partners with Allah. Kufr could be approximately translated as "covering the truth", i.e. it means denial Kuffar is the plural of kafir. May Allah Most High protect us from these evils and keep our Iman at safety. Amin. And Allah knows best! EDIT: Brother Taymullah from Eurabia made a good point. Somehow or other I'm going to have to re-learn almost everything from scratch - for the second time! Could it be that one of the reasons that people are so relaxed about the beard issue in Turkey is because they HAVE to be, because otherwise they are branded anti-Ataturk traitors - forget the fact that they can'T work for the state, and all imams and muftis are forbidden to have beards? I'm trying to make husnu-zan here (good assumptions!!). Can the breakdown of one major Sunnah trigger the breakdown of many other Sunnah, Vajip and Fardh, like dominos? We see it indivivually - could it happen collectively as well, so that banning one Sunnah could trigger the abandoning and neglecting of many Sunnah and Fardh - even embarrassment about associating with people who say loudly "Bismillahirrahmanirrahim" frequently!! It seems that I hear so many people say, in response to one of my "is so-and-so fardh/ haram/ halal" questions - "Well, look at ME, I only go to the mosque at Ramazan, it's a miracle that we even perform Salah nowadays, our Prophet predicted that these days would come, it's a sign of the times... May Allah forgive us sigh".... Like, "Hey, in an ideal world we'd all follow the Sunnah, but what can we do, this breakdown of Islam was pre-ordained, we're just victims!" It's got to the point where I hardly dare open my mouth to ask or talk about Sunnah or Sharia, for fear of appearing to be criticizing the entire nation, their government, their revered dead leaders, their traditions, their families, their role models, etc. As for perennialism - here it's called "ilm-i siyaset", as far as I can see. Intentional and wise diplomacy. Not antagonizing the non-Muslims, the liberal Muslims, the atheists, the potential Muslims. Not "scaring people off" by growing beards or wearing hijab, not "putting people off our religion", not "giving the impression that we're fanatics/ uneducated/ ignorant/ anti-Western/ whatever." On a personal interaction level, not "risking being the cause of the person's nafs to rebel by advising good or warning against bad". So it seems that widespread perennialism results in a very strange, topsy-turvy kind of situation. Good is bad, religion is tolerated, Sunnah is old-fashioned and embarassing, Sharia is fanatical and extremist, and YOU ARE A POTENTIAL SINNER to outwardly support these things (because you might put other Muslims off Islam). I'm not talking about rushing around waving a sword and screaming "Death to all kaffir!!" I'm talking about hesitatingly suggesting that maybe it might be a good thing to spend less time with drunken, foul-mouthed non-Muslims, for example. Aaargh. May Allah grant me the wisdom, and wise friends, to help me sort out the extremists from the devout, the tolerant from the deviant. And to find role-models who please Him, and to be a good role-model myself eventually one day, Insh'Allah. Sorry to rant so much. Feeling impotent, and pretty much a geographical minority of one person at the moment. It's hard to convince oneself that ones (new!) beliefs are correct when everybody around you condemns them. If it weren't for my SF family, I'd probably have concluded that humility demanded that I accept that other people around me are wiser than me (which they no doubt are, but maybe a little misguided??). To summarize: should I conclude that the majority of Muslims around me (let's forget the non-Muslims for the moment) are not presenting a good example - with regards to perennialism, for instance? Wouldn't this be a judgmental and arrogant conclusion? And if all these "tolerant" Muslims are bad role models, who should a revert sister's role models be? The wives of our prophet , who lived and died so many centuries ago? And - How do you know the difference between tolerance/ good manners and perennialism?
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