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**kertionderf** · 09-04-2012, 04:22 AM

You're confusing many issues together - when I cited zina I cited it in the context of it being a sin not about the nature of its punishment (that is a separate issue and one that needs not to be discussed here). The issue at hand to be clear is that there does exist UNANIMOUS CONSENSUS about what is sinful and what is not. Adultery is sinful fullstop (no jurist in the world can even begin to try and justify sexual relations outside of marriage) - I'm not talking about the nature of its punishment or the earthly penalty imposed on it - but there is complete consensus that Muslims who engage in sexual behaviour outside of the holy framework of marriage are indulging in sinful behaviour. Such a consensus does not exist with regards to music.

Here is a clear cut list on things where there is UNANIMOUS CONSENSUS (and please read this article you are very confused on some very basic issues of fiqh):
http://www.suhaibwebb.com/society/wh...olars-a-mercy/

''Some examples of qatʻī matters:

The oneness of God
The finality of the message of Muḥammad ﷺ
The prohibition of unlawful murder
The prohibition of homosexuality
The prohibition of adultery/fornication
The prohibition of drinking alcohol
The obligation of the five daily prayers
Dealing with people justly
Abusing, cursing and defaming others
Sectarianism and breaking up Muslim unity
Backbiting and slander
Spying and unwarranted suspicion
Declaring the companions of the Prophet as apostates (May Allāh protect us)''

I challenge you to bring even one person/scholar who will use the juristic resources of the Islamic tradition to argue the opposite of the propositions described above. So please do not speak rubbish when you say ''even on the most basic concepts of fiqh, there is no unanimity'' - because of course there is unanimity. There are some absolutely clear cut injunctions that cannot be discarded. You are presenting a very simplistic picture of what is definitive and what is a source of disagreement. You really must understand the issues of where there exists a difference in opinion for our modern context....

And please read this very beneficial article as well:
http://www.suhaibwebb.com/islam-stud...n-usul-part-6/

Mashallah Imam Suhaibb Webb's website is a beacon of tolerance and scholarship on an internet ravaged by sectarian intolerance...

Adnan Oktar is not well read in jurisprudence nor does he claim to be a jurist! Please people get some perspective here....

What does it matter whether Adnan Oktar is "well read in jurisprudence" or doesn't "claim to be a jurist"? Where are these prerequisites coming from? Scholars much greater and more numerous than anyone who has tried to make music permissible have come and gone and some are still alive but of course you won't listen to them so what do all these ranks, positions, and status matter?

Suhaib Webb is also someone who has flip flopped and went from one organization to the next.

Furthermore, even that list you've provided, you have to prove that these matters are agreed upon by complete unanimity. I can tell you that they're not, especially when people get into defining what exactly is slander or spying or finality or unlawful murder or even drinking alcohol. For example, in the Hanafi madhhab, only alcohol that is derived from grapes and dates specifically is haraam. Otherwise, alcohol that may be synthetic or derived from other sources and if it does not intoxicate - it is considered permissible (an example would be alcohol used to carry flavour in modern manufacturing processes, which would make the product haraam for non-Hanafis but people who like to pick and choose and follow their desires choose the Hanafi position in this regard). Even the obligation of the five daily prayers is contested, especially if you consider the Shi'a to be Muslim - which automatically includes THEIR beliefs as being valid differences in opinion. The Shi'a have three prayers, for example. "Abusing, cursing, and defaming others" is also something that is challenged and there is no ijma' on this: the Shi'a say it is praiseworthy to curse the Sahaba

, the pure wives رضي الله عنهن, and anyone who "opposed" the Ahlul Bayt. Is this a valid opinion? If you consider them Muslims, then their opinions are supposed to be acceptable to you, since you accept all minority opinions to be valid.

Even the most basic belief - the oneness of God - has been contested by "minority opinion". The Alawi Shi'a believe that 'Ali

is God. The Druze also believed that God came down as a human. Now, both of these groups have been expelled from the folds of Islam by the ulama because of their perversion of this fundamental belief of Islam because of their minority opinion.

If you think Suhaib Webb is a good representation of a great 'alim, you're sorely mistaken because your gauge for measuring how good a scholar is appears not to be based upon adherence or promotion of haqq despite opposition, but taking the path of least resistance to placate everyone. Do you even know why the Deobandis or Barelvis or Salafis exist? These groups exist because each believes that there is a fundamental difference between them on the most basic of things.

09-04-2012, 04:22 AM	#33
kertionderf Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 498 Senior Member	You're confusing many issues together - when I cited zina I cited it in the context of it being a sin not about the nature of its punishment (that is a separate issue and one that needs not to be discussed here). The issue at hand to be clear is that there does exist UNANIMOUS CONSENSUS about what is sinful and what is not. Adultery is sinful fullstop (no jurist in the world can even begin to try and justify sexual relations outside of marriage) - I'm not talking about the nature of its punishment or the earthly penalty imposed on it - but there is complete consensus that Muslims who engage in sexual behaviour outside of the holy framework of marriage are indulging in sinful behaviour. Such a consensus does not exist with regards to music. Here is a clear cut list on things where there is UNANIMOUS CONSENSUS (and please read this article you are very confused on some very basic issues of fiqh): http://www.suhaibwebb.com/society/wh...olars-a-mercy/ ''Some examples of qatʻī matters: The oneness of God The finality of the message of Muḥammad ﷺ The prohibition of unlawful murder The prohibition of homosexuality The prohibition of adultery/fornication The prohibition of drinking alcohol The obligation of the five daily prayers Dealing with people justly Abusing, cursing and defaming others Sectarianism and breaking up Muslim unity Backbiting and slander Spying and unwarranted suspicion Declaring the companions of the Prophet as apostates (May Allāh protect us)'' I challenge you to bring even one person/scholar who will use the juristic resources of the Islamic tradition to argue the opposite of the propositions described above. So please do not speak rubbish when you say ''even on the most basic concepts of fiqh, there is no unanimity'' - because of course there is unanimity. There are some absolutely clear cut injunctions that cannot be discarded. You are presenting a very simplistic picture of what is definitive and what is a source of disagreement. You really must understand the issues of where there exists a difference in opinion for our modern context.... And please read this very beneficial article as well: http://www.suhaibwebb.com/islam-stud...n-usul-part-6/ Mashallah Imam Suhaibb Webb's website is a beacon of tolerance and scholarship on an internet ravaged by sectarian intolerance... Adnan Oktar is not well read in jurisprudence nor does he claim to be a jurist! Please people get some perspective here.... What does it matter whether Adnan Oktar is "well read in jurisprudence" or doesn't "claim to be a jurist"? Where are these prerequisites coming from? Scholars much greater and more numerous than anyone who has tried to make music permissible have come and gone and some are still alive but of course you won't listen to them so what do all these ranks, positions, and status matter? Suhaib Webb is also someone who has flip flopped and went from one organization to the next. Furthermore, even that list you've provided, you have to prove that these matters are agreed upon by complete unanimity. I can tell you that they're not, especially when people get into defining what exactly is slander or spying or finality or unlawful murder or even drinking alcohol. For example, in the Hanafi madhhab, only alcohol that is derived from grapes and dates specifically is haraam. Otherwise, alcohol that may be synthetic or derived from other sources and if it does not intoxicate - it is considered permissible (an example would be alcohol used to carry flavour in modern manufacturing processes, which would make the product haraam for non-Hanafis but people who like to pick and choose and follow their desires choose the Hanafi position in this regard). Even the obligation of the five daily prayers is contested, especially if you consider the Shi'a to be Muslim - which automatically includes THEIR beliefs as being valid differences in opinion. The Shi'a have three prayers, for example. "Abusing, cursing, and defaming others" is also something that is challenged and there is no ijma' on this: the Shi'a say it is praiseworthy to curse the Sahaba , the pure wives رضي الله عنهن, and anyone who "opposed" the Ahlul Bayt. Is this a valid opinion? If you consider them Muslims, then their opinions are supposed to be acceptable to you, since you accept all minority opinions to be valid. Even the most basic belief - the oneness of God - has been contested by "minority opinion". The Alawi Shi'a believe that 'Ali is God. The Druze also believed that God came down as a human. Now, both of these groups have been expelled from the folds of Islam by the ulama because of their perversion of this fundamental belief of Islam because of their minority opinion. If you think Suhaib Webb is a good representation of a great 'alim, you're sorely mistaken because your gauge for measuring how good a scholar is appears not to be based upon adherence or promotion of haqq despite opposition, but taking the path of least resistance to placate everyone. Do you even know why the Deobandis or Barelvis or Salafis exist? These groups exist because each believes that there is a fundamental difference between them on the most basic of things.
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