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**Quality4Qty** · 10-17-2007, 07:50 PM

ag

First off the temple I go to allows all to join as long as they harm none.

As far as this AB thing? Frankly...it doesn't mean a thing to me. Not in the long run. We don't have "coming out" celebrations, we just welcome folks in. We do ritual, have services of a sort, provide consoling and so on. And yes..for those who worship Gods or Godesses, almost all of those are Adults. (Not withstanding the baby Jesus or baby Krishna or Cupid)

From a Zen standpoint "beliefs" of any kind fall short of Reality. (Yep..even the one I just stated). Desires and attachment lead to dukha (best translation is suffering). There is only dukha and release from dukha. (sounds dualistic but the real lesson is in not grasping this and forming it into a concept. Just letting it be.) Everything else is interpretation of the EGO. These beliefs do not make someone "Good" or "Bad". Those are just more beliefs. Folks are just "missing the mark". We ALL do this in almost every aspect of our lives.

So... AB...workaholic....country music listener....goth....vegan...compulsive washer...drama queen...Submissive....doesn't matter really.

Frankly stating you are AB or DL (or anything else) as something that needs to be recognized is a declaration of EGO. Neither good nor bad. Makes you no less or more than anyone else. It also doesn't mean I have to recognize that as being any more important than you stating you are a man or a woman, young or old, hetero or homosexual. I could care less. Whats Real about you is none of those things. (yep..more beliefs...).

If your AB affects the way you perceive yourself than this will affect how others perceive you. I am never an advocate for the "victim" role and for that or "victim consciousness". The fact is, if you choose to perceive yourself as victim than you will be victimized.

Well, I guess I see it this way.

I understand your perspective, and I on the surface of it agree with you. People are just people. If everyone had your attitude, there wouldn't be a problem.

However, that's not the way the world is. People have perceptions, and their perceptions color the way they treat people. If it were a miniscule minority that held that opinion, all would be good. The problem hinges on the fact that it isn't a minority opinion. It is a majority opinion.

The majority, in a democracy, more or less make the rules. That's the sticking point.

The second problem is that for many people the Internet is the only way for AB's to get help. This is especially true of young AB's. No highschool sex ed class or support groups are there for them. There is no outrach, nor would htere be more then likely. It is easier to get help and support if a person is gay, then it wouldbe if they were hetrosexual and an AB.

That being said, I don't consider myself a victim. I really don't. I think, however, that it would be less then honest to say that as a group, we have been more often then not treated less then human. I can remember when they were exploiting us on Jerry Springer for the laighter of the non-Ab's in the audience. I have read the comments of others.

I realize the Jerry Springer Show is what it is. It exploits everyone. But the fact is, I really do think that it reflects the publics desire to frame others different then in a way that is dehumanizing. I think it also reflects the majority societies desire to humiliate, denigrate and disrespect us.

I guess the question then would be, is it right to speak up? Surely, if we are all human beings, and we are all equal , then they are no more worthy of respect and dignity then anyone else. I would encourage people that are tolerant like yourself to do what is right, and not contribute to it. You should know that as stupid as the people who go on Jerry Springer are, as attention hungry and foolish as it they may be, there humans like you. What if that was your son or daughter up there?

People forget we have family, friends and parents too. I hope more people become open minded like yourself, so we can be free to be who we are and not be reduced to one dimensional objects of derision and mockery for the (SEEMINGLY) heartless greater minority who just wants a good laugh at a persons expense.

10-17-2007, 07:50 PM	#20
Quality4Qty Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 576 Senior Member	ag First off the temple I go to allows all to join as long as they harm none. As far as this AB thing? Frankly...it doesn't mean a thing to me. Not in the long run. We don't have "coming out" celebrations, we just welcome folks in. We do ritual, have services of a sort, provide consoling and so on. And yes..for those who worship Gods or Godesses, almost all of those are Adults. (Not withstanding the baby Jesus or baby Krishna or Cupid) From a Zen standpoint "beliefs" of any kind fall short of Reality. (Yep..even the one I just stated). Desires and attachment lead to dukha (best translation is suffering). There is only dukha and release from dukha. (sounds dualistic but the real lesson is in not grasping this and forming it into a concept. Just letting it be.) Everything else is interpretation of the EGO. These beliefs do not make someone "Good" or "Bad". Those are just more beliefs. Folks are just "missing the mark". We ALL do this in almost every aspect of our lives. So... AB...workaholic....country music listener....goth....vegan...compulsive washer...drama queen...Submissive....doesn't matter really. Frankly stating you are AB or DL (or anything else) as something that needs to be recognized is a declaration of EGO. Neither good nor bad. Makes you no less or more than anyone else. It also doesn't mean I have to recognize that as being any more important than you stating you are a man or a woman, young or old, hetero or homosexual. I could care less. Whats Real about you is none of those things. (yep..more beliefs...). If your AB affects the way you perceive yourself than this will affect how others perceive you. I am never an advocate for the "victim" role and for that or "victim consciousness". The fact is, if you choose to perceive yourself as victim than you will be victimized. Well, I guess I see it this way. I understand your perspective, and I on the surface of it agree with you. People are just people. If everyone had your attitude, there wouldn't be a problem. However, that's not the way the world is. People have perceptions, and their perceptions color the way they treat people. If it were a miniscule minority that held that opinion, all would be good. The problem hinges on the fact that it isn't a minority opinion. It is a majority opinion. The majority, in a democracy, more or less make the rules. That's the sticking point. The second problem is that for many people the Internet is the only way for AB's to get help. This is especially true of young AB's. No highschool sex ed class or support groups are there for them. There is no outrach, nor would htere be more then likely. It is easier to get help and support if a person is gay, then it wouldbe if they were hetrosexual and an AB. That being said, I don't consider myself a victim. I really don't. I think, however, that it would be less then honest to say that as a group, we have been more often then not treated less then human. I can remember when they were exploiting us on Jerry Springer for the laighter of the non-Ab's in the audience. I have read the comments of others. I realize the Jerry Springer Show is what it is. It exploits everyone. But the fact is, I really do think that it reflects the publics desire to frame others different then in a way that is dehumanizing. I think it also reflects the majority societies desire to humiliate, denigrate and disrespect us. I guess the question then would be, is it right to speak up? Surely, if we are all human beings, and we are all equal , then they are no more worthy of respect and dignity then anyone else. I would encourage people that are tolerant like yourself to do what is right, and not contribute to it. You should know that as stupid as the people who go on Jerry Springer are, as attention hungry and foolish as it they may be, there humans like you. What if that was your son or daughter up there? People forget we have family, friends and parents too. I hope more people become open minded like yourself, so we can be free to be who we are and not be reduced to one dimensional objects of derision and mockery for the (SEEMINGLY) heartless greater minority who just wants a good laugh at a persons expense.
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