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**OEMCHEAPSOFTDOWNLOAD** · 11-17-2011, 05:44 AM

I tend to think allong the lines of conventional reality as being empty of permenantly or inherently existant phenomena , and ultimate reality (buddha nature tathagatagabha) as the only perminantly non changing phenomena .(therefore the only truely existant phenomena)

Hi ratikala,
This position was developed by Indian philosophers well after Buddha's time. If you carefully examine what Buddha taught you will see that he actually rejected it. It comes as a bit of a shock to discover that, I admit but take a look at this and ponder the implications:
Then Vacchagotta the wanderer went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Now then, Master Gotama, is the cosmos eternal?"

"That has not been declared by me, Vaccha: 'The cosmos is eternal.'"

"Well then, Master Gotama, is the cosmos not eternal?"

"Vaccha, that too has not been declared by me: 'The cosmos is not eternal.'"

"Then is the cosmos finite?"... "Is the cosmos infinite?"... "Is the body the same as the soul?"... "Is the body one thing, and the soul another?"... "Does the Tathagata exist after death?"... "Does the Tathagata not exist after death?"... "Does the Tathagata both exist and not exist after death?"... "Does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?"

"Vaccha, that too has not been declared by me: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....008.than.html

In particular the section about the Tathagata is relevant. Vaccha covers all logical eventualities and Buddha rejects them all. No Two Truths here, as it would fall under the "both exist and not exist" option. No eternal abiding anything. No conventional or ultimate.

As a philosophical tool the 'Two Truths' do a decent job of upsetting the self-cherishing apple cart but they are understood by many to be an ontological position, which is a step the Buddha never took.

Namaste
Kris

11-17-2011, 05:44 AM	#8
OEMCHEAPSOFTDOWNLOAD Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 336 Senior Member	I tend to think allong the lines of conventional reality as being empty of permenantly or inherently existant phenomena , and ultimate reality (buddha nature tathagatagabha) as the only perminantly non changing phenomena .(therefore the only truely existant phenomena) Hi ratikala, This position was developed by Indian philosophers well after Buddha's time. If you carefully examine what Buddha taught you will see that he actually rejected it. It comes as a bit of a shock to discover that, I admit but take a look at this and ponder the implications: Then Vacchagotta the wanderer went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Now then, Master Gotama, is the cosmos eternal?" "That has not been declared by me, Vaccha: 'The cosmos is eternal.'" "Well then, Master Gotama, is the cosmos not eternal?" "Vaccha, that too has not been declared by me: 'The cosmos is not eternal.'" "Then is the cosmos finite?"... "Is the cosmos infinite?"... "Is the body the same as the soul?"... "Is the body one thing, and the soul another?"... "Does the Tathagata exist after death?"... "Does the Tathagata not exist after death?"... "Does the Tathagata both exist and not exist after death?"... "Does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?" "Vaccha, that too has not been declared by me: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....008.than.html In particular the section about the Tathagata is relevant. Vaccha covers all logical eventualities and Buddha rejects them all. No Two Truths here, as it would fall under the "both exist and not exist" option. No eternal abiding anything. No conventional or ultimate. As a philosophical tool the 'Two Truths' do a decent job of upsetting the self-cherishing apple cart but they are understood by many to be an ontological position, which is a step the Buddha never took. Namaste Kris
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