[Belindanan]

Oh yeah, and what about your very provocative description of ash'ari i'itiqad? Take your own advice.

It's not my fault, when the Ash'aris say provocative things. They said that the wording is created and they said that the uncreated speech of Allah ta'ala is one indivisible meaning. Please ask them why they're saying such things.

So you believe words can be uncreated? Interesting.

Well, we're not speaking about any words, rather we're speaking about the words of Allah ta'ala!! And yes I regard the Qur`an to be uncreated from the first Ayah till the last one!! None of it is created!!

If it would be like our words (i.e. created), Allah ta'ala would not have said:

{ وَإِن كُنْتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّمَّا نَزَّلْنَا عَلَىٰ عَبْدِنَا فَأْتُواْ بِسُورَةٍ مِّن مِّثْلِهِ وَٱدْعُواْ شُهَدَآءَكُم مِّن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَٰدِقِينَ }
{ فَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلُواْ وَلَن تَفْعَلُواْ فَٱتَّقُواْ ٱلنَّارَ ٱلَّتِي وَقُودُهَا ٱلنَّاسُ وَٱلْحِجَارَةُ أُعِدَّتْ لِلْكَٰفِرِينَ }

{ If you are in doubt about what We have revealed to Our servant, then bring a Sūrah similar to this, and do call your supporters other than Allah, if you are true. }
{ But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then guard yourselves against the Fire, the fuel of which will be men and stones. It has been prepared for disbelievers. }

[2:23-24]

(I'm out of this thread.)