[maxfreemann]

I completely agree with that, until you get to the "...and we wonder why they want us out" part. I was never for the war, and I agree we have created a deplorable situation. But what would the effects of us leaving be? Sure, the anti-West people there want us out, and I'm sure a large swathe of ordinary Iraqi's want the US out for pride reasons, it being their country. However what is going to reduce violence the most? Sure, if we leave, there's less hatred, but there's also far less security forces to keep the peace. Indeed, it sickens me when someone like Hillary, who voted for the war in Iraq, argues that we need our troops out as the cost in American lives and taxpayer money is too high. Excuse me?! If you decide to invade a country, you have a moral obligation to not leave it in complete disarray. How many Iraqi's will die if the US just pulls out? Given that the war has happened, leaving before Iraq has the ability to look after its own security issues and keep its own peace would be a more morally dubious act than going in in the first place.

Cost could be cut by swapping contracted security forces paid over 10 times as much as US soldiers for normal US forces. Moreover, I'm sure the British have done it more efficiently, as while I realise the US has far more troops there, it's cost the US well over $400bn yet even including Afghanistan as well, the UK has spent less than £6bn in total on foreign policy.

But really, that's all immaterial, IMHO. We decided to go in, we decided to start this war. Yes, it is good to remove a brutal dictator, but couldn't we at least have waited until after we'd finished with Afghanistan properly and managed to use these resources to really stop terrorism? He wasn't an imminent threat. But we started this war, and we have a duty to not leave a vaccuum of power and a lack of any ability to keep the peace.

So really, Iraq comes down to a simple solution:
Get a broad spectrum of Middle-East experts to help advise on how best to improve security and help the Iraqi's do so,
Then put in the troops, the training, and help the Iraqi's become self-sufficient,
Then pull troops out.

Yes, Bush's policies have and seem to still be failing, but that doesn't mean it's time to cut and run. It means we need to look at what is best for Iraq. Not what is best for the US taxpayer. That's what perspective means for me - understanding that it's time to do what's best for Iraqi's and save as many lives as possible, not start talking about the US cost and the need to cut and run.