[uneniaPhenits]

I believe it is time we describe a condition which I would call the Fenno-Turkish Syndrome. It so happened that Finns and Turks are the westernmost representatives of their ethno-linguistic families (Finnic and Turkic respectively). They are more European in genetic and anthropological terms than their eastern kinsmen, and also more developed. This makes Finns and Turks look at other Finnic and Turkic ethnicities condescendingly.

At the same time Finnish and Turkic nationalists like any other nationalists seek inspiration from their ancient cultures, which makes them turn to their less civilized eastern brethren, who have preserved these cultures much better. An example can be seen in the use of national epics. The Finnish national identity is centered around the Kalevala, which is based on epic songs of Russian Karelians. Finns proper have no epic songs of their own. Anatolian Turks also have no epic songs of their own and have to seek inspiration in the epics of their eastern Oghuz kinsmen.

Finns and Turks aspire to be as Western and European as possible. They also aspire to be leaders of their respective ethno-linguistic families. But the kinship with uncivilized eastern ethnicities with a strong Mongoloid component compromises their Western and European status. This generates a complicated love-hate attitude, exactly which I would call the Fenno-Turkish Syndrome.

[Rasklad]

Finns and Turks are the westernmost representatives of their ethno-linguistic families (Finnic and Turkic respectively).

Saami are the westernmost Finno-Ugrians, not Finns.

But the kinship with uncivilized eastern ethnicities with a strong Mongoloid component compromises their Western and European status. Volga-Finnics nor Komi are not particulary Mongoloid. This is another sad attempt to Mongolify Russian Finno-Ugrics who are the true Russians, not some phony clerical ethnicity created by ultraslavonic Orthodox church.

[duribass]

Very good analysis Aeon.

Kalevala is extreme crucial for Finnish national identity, not for its content but for the sake that it allegedly shows that Uralic-speaking Finland was civilized prior to the Swedish rule.

The finns (and the Turks I guess) certainly have a dilemma with their contemporary westernizing narratives in regards to their ethnogenesis.

The Fennonationalists here, and, I gues the majority of Finns (not all, though) were not too keen on the English anthropologists, E. Duttons premise about Finnish culture being an Arctic culture, because it was a hit in the face for the dominating, contemporary westernizing narrative which the Finns are so keen on, these days.

"Battling to be European: Myth and the Finnish race debate"
http://www.antrocom.net/upload/sub/a...4-Antrocom.pdf

"This ‘struggle to be European’ has all the makings of a scintillating – and yet dangerous – anthropological myth. There is strong evidence that some Finnish scholars – harbouring an overwhelming desire that Finns should be seen as ‘white’ –are presenting what is, alas, tendentious scholarship to the wider world in order to suppress the debate over the origins of their own people and have them acceptedas ‘white’ without question".

"Laine (2006) provides a detailed discussion of the Finnish inferiority complex or ‘Cultural Cringe’ (see Philips 1958). She claims that as a result of their history Finns are often ‘discontented with their nation’ and ‘ashamed of themselves.’ She argues that there is a history of ‘self-stigmatisation’ in Finland because Finnishness was defined as ‘inferior to the rest of Europe’ and the Finns were regarded as ‘separate, mentally colonised “others”’ (74). The Finns were also perceived as ‘lazy, children of nature, living day by day with a tendency for drinking – in opposition to other Europeans’"

The Finnuit

[QysnZWB4]

I love speculative people, they always use all their brain capacity to invent something interesting

However the real reason why Finns have had so little common with Finnic groups to the east is Russian historic isolation. Every learned European knows that, I am not sure are American even interested to know.

[Abraham]

However the real reason why Finns have had so little common with Finnic groups to the east is Russian historic isolation. Every learned European knows that, I am not sure are American even interested to know.

I don't think its Russian historic isolation, its rather the fact that the natural bridge to the Easternmost Fenno-Ugric was cut thanks to the russification of the Fenno-Ugrics in between. Well, ofcourse Soviet isolation with its Iron-curtain also played some role.

I would personally love to see Finns embracing more of their roots in Urals. The Euro-fever among Finns is ok, but it should never come at the cost of the true cultural roots.

[kristloken]

However the real reason why Finns have had so little common with Finnic groups to the east is Russian historic isolation.

And allmost completely different ethnogenesis (any common factor was so long a go that they hardly matter anymore). Volga-Finnic lands were not only over run by Muscovites but were actually pretty much central for Turkic migrations (Huns, Bolgars, Kazars etc) and later Mongols. Turkic and Mongol peoples had no part in Finnish ethnogenesis, unlike Russians or Volga-Finnics.

[alias]

And allmost completely different ethnogenesis (any common factor was so long a go that they hardly matter anymore). Volga-Finnic lands were not only over run by Muscovites but were actually pretty much central for Turkic migrations (Huns, Bolgars, Kazars etc) and later Mongols. Turkic and Mongol peoples had no part in Finnish ethnogenesis, unlike Russians or Volga-Finnics.

FTS in its pure form.

[lalffibra]

FTS in its pure form.

Be precise. What is not correct ?

You are very close to be totally owned by me, again (trillionth time).

[nicegirlflor]

Estonians are more "Western" than Finns culturally, historically, racially etc.

And your drawing parallels between two completely unrelated groups with different circumstances reeks of ideology-driven pseudoscience.

[JJoon077]

And your drawing parallels between two completely unrelated groups with different circumstances reeks of ideology-driven pseudoscience.

Exactly. This is part of his campaign to deny Turkic participation of Russian ethnogenesis and history by projecting it to us, western neighbours of Russia.

I simply found this disgusting, he is basically denying fex. the Tatars their role in forming Russia. This is typical panslavisist nonsense, fully inline with all these aR1an fantasies present at these boards.

[rJohutozsfds]

Estonians are more "Western" than Finns culturally, historically, racially etc.

Infact Estonians are not more western, it depends how you measure it. They have same common old roots with Finns, Finns have had more western cultural connections during last century, though Estonians had this advantage earlier. Genetically Estonians have pretty equal amount of western affinity than Finns, though they have much less genetic Sami affinity and this is very understandable.

[Dynasty]

Few old anthro pics of Udmurts. They seem to look like pretty Finno-Ugric imo. No visible Turkic (Pontic/Turanid) or Mongol features.

[VyacheslaV]

Exactly. This is part of his campaign to deny Turkic participation of Russian ethnogenesis and history by projecting it to us, western neighbours of Russia.

I simply found this disgusting, he is basically denying fex. the Tatars their role in forming Russia. This is typical panslavisist nonsense, fully inline with all these aR1an fantasies present at these boards.

However I would like to see more Finnish-Eastern Finno-Ugrians contacts. Cultural cooperation would be fine, though I want to see how Russians react on economic contacts between Finns and Russian FU-people. After all dissociating cultural and other cooperation would produce problems sooner or later.

[Ad0i89Od]

There is Fenno-Turkic connection after all:

The wave of influence emanating from the Lomovatovo culture is exemplified
by an inhumation burial of a chief, discovered at Pappilanmäki, SW Finland,
and dated to the beginning of the 8th century AD. The buried warrior had, among
other things, a “Permian” belt, i.e. a leather belt with various bronze fittings of a
kind common in cemeteries in the upper Kama region and representing the third
phase of the Lomovatovo culture. It has been suggested that important Finnish warriors wore Permian belts as signs of membership in a trading network that extended from the Kama region to Finland. On the other hand, the Pappilanmäki warrior was equipped with a sword with
a gilded hilt of the ringed type. These extremely valuable swords have been discovered in various parts of the Germanic Europe and adjacent areas. This type of sword is thought to represent a token that a prince gave to a knight who swore
loyalty as a member of the prince’s company or hird. About AD 700, the Bolgars established their presence around the great Volga
Bend and started their commercial activity in which fur trade and connections
with the Khalifate played major roles. Of course, the Bolgars benefited from the
contacts with existing trading networks such as the one represented by “Permian
belts”. The Pappilanmäki burial is an eloquent piece of evidence attesting to
how members of the Finnish elite were involved in both eastern and western networks. It is likely that these were the men who opened their Scandinavian
partners’ eyes to recognise the chances for exploitation there were along the East
European waterways. Christian Carpelan:On Archaeological Aspects of Uralic, Finno-Ugric
and Finnic Societies before AD 800

If we follow the idea that Russias deepest roots are at Ladogan region (Staraya Ladoga / Aldeigjuborg) then it was this Fenno-Bolgarian co-opeation that kickstarted the development that created Russia.

aeon, completely owned again.

[aspinswramymn]

Ridiculous little thread.

[dosyrotsbop]

I believe it is time we describe a condition which I would call the Fenno-Turkish Syndrome. It so happened that Finns and Turks are the westernmost representatives of their ethno-linguistic families (Finnic and Turkic respectively). They are more European in genetic and anthropological terms than their eastern kinsmen, and also more developed. This makes Finns and Turks look at other Finnic and Turkic ethnicities condescendingly.

At the same time Finnish and Turkic nationalists like any other nationalists seek inspiration from their ancient cultures, which makes them turn to their less civilized eastern brethren, who have preserved these cultures much better. An example can be seen in the use of national epics. The Finnish national identity is centered around the Kalevala, which is based on epic songs of Russian Karelians. Finns proper have no epic songs of their own. Anatolian Turks also have no epic songs of their own and have to seek inspiration in the epics of their eastern Oghuz kinsmen.

Finns and Turks aspire to be as Western and European as possible. They also aspire to be leaders of their respective ethno-linguistic families. But the kinship with uncivilized eastern ethnicities with a strong Mongoloid component compromises their Western and European status. This generates a complicated love-hate attitude, exactly which I would call the Fenno-Turkish Syndrome.

Dude,what about hungarians?

[citicroego]

They are more European in genetic and anthropological terms than their eastern kinsmen, and also more developed. This makes Finns and Turks look at other Finnic and Turkic ethnicities condescendingly.

I don't know about Finns, but Turks in Turkey perceive other Turkic people in a quite positive way. You can't even compare it to Russian attitude towards Ukrainians or Poles.

Anatolian Turks also have no epic songs of their own

Says who? Anatolian Turks have epic songs/poems of their own.

[iNYZgxNC]

The Finnish national identity is centered around the Kalevala, which is based on epic songs of Russian Karelians. Finns proper have no epic songs of their own.

Kalevala is western Finnish and western Estonian in origin but the last runic singers who had retained the oral tradition were found in Karelia.
In Karelia not Russian-Karelia.

[Fiipolera]

I'm unaware of Finnish people's present-day case and their own way that drew by them in history. I can talk about Turks. They were always in the mid and they are. Turks has never been exactly Asian nor European. Our tribes (the "bone" mass) has been stuck around the Eurasian steppes out of other "crazy" Turkic tribes. This case is valid for the culture. For example: Seljuks (an Oghuz tribe) had been affected by Iran. This fact is colliding with "European phenomenon". Bulgars (Onogur tribe) had been affected by Slavs. This fact is colliding with "Asian phenomenon".

By the race: Many Turkish tribes (i'm out of Turkic speaking Mongolid peoples) has Europid influences with Mongolid influences.

[Ifroham4]

I don't know about Finns, but Turks in Turkey perceive other Turkic people in a quite positive way. You can't even compare it to Russian attitude towards Ukrainians or Poles.

Finns perceive other Finno-Ugrian peoples positively as well. Our problem is that we are estranged from them because of the Russian oppression inflicted on the Finno Ugrian peoples.
We know little about them because they are locked up in the Great Prison Of Nations.
It's the Siberians we may have a funny picture about since their lifestyle is extremely different and the linguistic connection is also very distant, based on less than 200 words, fewer than the words shared by English and Indians. Is that so strange?

---------- Post added 2010-06-16 at 15:56 ----------

Ridiculous little thread.

Maybe our knowledge about ourselves can cast a little light on the ignorance of aeon after all, Kyte?