[zatronanec]

John McGraw cheated.
Willy Keeler cheated.
Ty Cobb cheated.
Gaylord Perry cheated.

Hell, I'll bet more people than not have "cheated" at some point in their baseball careers.

In MOST cases, it shouldn't be grounds for banishment from the Hall. In Raffy's case, I don't see that it should.

In Rose's case, I can see why he shouldn't be allowed back.

Most of the people that cheated, did so to try to win.

In Rose's case, it can be concluded that some of the things he did were detrimental to his team's chances of winning on certain days.

I'm not saying juicing, corking bats, grabbing players as they round third base (McGraw, I'm looking at you) sharpening your cleats to razor sharp spikes (Cobb, you're an asshole!) are ok. But at least they weren't burning their bullpens to win on tuesday because they bet on that game, and fuck the team over for Wednesday.

Great post. I've tried to make this point a number of times on the Phils board but have never done it as clearly as you just did Whiskey. Palmiero broke the rules to make himself better and, arguably, make his team better -- a very strong argument could be made that Palmiero "cheated" because he wanted to win so badly, which is partly selfish but also partly what we want all of these athletes to do (i.e., sacrifice themselves for the good of the team and the fans that want to see the team win). Rose broke the rules simply for his own benefit...because baseball games weren't interesting enough if he just had the dream job of being a player / manager, he also had to have money riding on them. Very different, imo.

[Orefsmisits]

I hate...uh, I forgot.

[moopogyOvenny]

Todd Bertuzzi
Carlos Zambrano

[HaseBeceDeemy]

In Rose's case, it can be concluded that some of the things he did were detrimental to his team's chances of winning on certain days.

I'm not saying juicing, corking bats, grabbing players as they round third base (McGraw, I'm looking at you) sharpening your cleats to razor sharp spikes (Cobb, you're an asshole!) are ok. But at least they weren't burning their bullpens to win on tuesday because they bet on that game, and fuck the team over for Wednesday. And, unless he bet the same amount on every game, he tipped off bookies who work for organized crime. The bookies set their line based on how much Rose bet.

[12dargernswearf]

Chuck Bednarik.

I hold grudges.

[secondmertg]

Chuck Bednarik.

I hold grudges.

If we're going to talk about all-time then I have some names:
Rodney Harrison
Don Denkinger
Matt Davison
Ron Caron

[mikeyyuiok]

If I held personal grudges I'd say Manning(bastard broke Marino's record),but since I'm not......Manning.

[Soolfelpecelf]

I'll agree with the Leonard Little vote. That piece of shit should be rotting in jail, not making millions playing football.

[colmedindustry]

Waste of typing skills. Like beating your head against a brick wall.

These people are convinced that McGwire invented steroids and LaRussa promoted them.

Lack of any proof doesn't slow them down even a little.

I've asked for proof until I'm blue in the face, all they can offer is Jose Canseco's word and Mac's acne (andro causes acne btw). Canseco's word is apparently worth a lot to these people.

Using the logic that TLR promoted its use: Andy Reid is at fault for Terrell Owens' behavior since he hasn't disciplined him harshly enough. Oh, he had the problems before he came to Philly and TO is an adult? Interesting argument...

[Allbrunette]

Using the logic that TLR promoted its use: Andy Reid is at fault for Terrell Owens' behavior since he hasn't disciplined him harshly enough. Oh, he had the problems before he came to Philly and TO is an adult? Interesting argument...

Some people hate winners, unless it's their winners.

[radikal]

did Ty Cobb cheat?? i was not aware of that, but i am only 23. i just thought everyone hated him because he used to go around pistol-whipping people and sliding into a base with his spikes always up.

Beating up umpires for calling him out on strikes? I'm not sure that's "cheating" but I'd sure as hell call it "intimidation". You don't think an umpire is going to be leery of even calling a strike at all on him after he kicks his ass? You think a 2nd baseman is going to come into cover the bag on a steal attempt when he saw Cobb on the bench the inning before sharpening his cleats to points with a file?

Maybe these things aren't straight out "cheating" but they're just as bad (IMO) as blatant rule violations like vasoline balls and grabbing people as they round a bag.

[reiseebup]

The one issue I would bring up with Rose's case in your arguement is looking at it as bringing him in as a player and discounting him as a coach, as a player there is no reason why he shouldn't be in, forget about him as a coach.

More hits than anyone in history. The way it's set up though, you also need to kiss the sportwriter's ass.

[babopeddy]

leonard little.

rep. this guy is worse than all the others mentioned on this board. it's not even close. Leonards mom would even vote for him.

[Nabeqiv]

Leonard Little would get my vote. I wouldn't blame LaRussa for allowing his players to use steroids, it isn't like he told them they had to. If anything blame him for having his pitchers hurt players by intentionally throwing at them.

[mxzjxluwst]

Leonard Little would get my vote. I wouldn't blame LaRussa for allowing his players to use steroids, it isn't like he told them they had to. If anything blame him for having his pitchers hurt players by intentionally throwing at them.

Who was intentionally thrown at?

[popillio]

two: jose canseco and mark mcgwire. he knowingly allowed those two to use and abuse steroids. he is a significant reason why steroid use has become a significant issue. if he had dealt with mcgwire and canseco while was in oakland, and brought the steroid issue to the forefront then, the problem would not be as big as it is now.

That's bullshit. LaRussa has nothing to do with promoting steroid use.

[numinertyuesk]

Is Barry Bonds on this list?

Right answer!

[chuecaloversvv]

John McGraw cheated.
Willy Keeler cheated.
Ty Cobb cheated.
Gaylord Perry cheated.

Hell, I'll bet more people than not have "cheated" at some point in their baseball careers.

In MOST cases, it shouldn't be grounds for banishment from the Hall. In Raffy's case, I don't see that it should.

In Rose's case, I can see why he shouldn't be allowed back.

Most of the people that cheated, did so to try to win.

In Rose's case, it can be concluded that some of the things he did were detrimental to his team's chances of winning on certain days.

I'm not saying juicing, corking bats, grabbing players as they round third base (McGraw, I'm looking at you) sharpening your cleats to razor sharp spikes (Cobb, you're an asshole!) are ok. But at least they weren't burning their bullpens to win on tuesday because they bet on that game, and fuck the team over for Wednesday.

did Ty Cobb cheat?? i was not aware of that, but i am only 23. i just thought everyone hated him because he used to go around pistol-whipping people and sliding into a base with his spikes always up.

[sposicke]

did Ty Cobb cheat?? i was not aware of that, but i am only 23. i just thought everyone hated him because he used to go around pistol-whipping people and sliding into a base with his spikes always up.

He was a dirty player, that's for sure but I'm not so sure he cheated.

[uncoosesoge]

John McGraw cheated.
Willy Keeler cheated.
Ty Cobb cheated.
Gaylord Perry cheated.

Hell, I'll bet more people than not have "cheated" at some point in their baseball careers.

In MOST cases, it shouldn't be grounds for banishment from the Hall. In Raffy's case, I don't see that it should.

In Rose's case, I can see why he shouldn't be allowed back.

Most of the people that cheated, did so to try to win.

In Rose's case, it can be concluded that some of the things he did were detrimental to his team's chances of winning on certain days.

I'm not saying juicing, corking bats, grabbing players as they round third base (McGraw, I'm looking at you) sharpening your cleats to razor sharp spikes (Cobb, you're an asshole!) are ok. But at least they weren't burning their bullpens to win on tuesday because they bet on that game, and fuck the team over for Wednesday.

The one issue I would bring up with Rose's case in your arguement is looking at it as bringing him in as a player and discounting him as a coach, as a player there is no reason why he shouldn't be in, forget about him as a coach.