[Ifroham4]

Ilavenil
There is no "historic proof" about the existence of Hindu Gods and Goddesses.

We have to believe the great Rishis and seers like Nayanmars and Alwars who "realized" God.

I studied in a Christian school and I was taught that Jesus Christ is Son Of God.God sent him to earth to teach HIS preachings and bear the sins of people of the world.I think Jehovah is the God for both Jews and Christians? (Christians---Please correct me if I am mistaken here).

Similarily, Prohphet Mohammed was also sent by Allah to earth to spread HIS message of love and peace.

[tgs]

Author - Virarajendra

References to Tamil - Dynasties, Countries, in Mahabharatha

The "original Sanskrit Mahabharatha written by Sage Viyasa" has many references to the Tamil Royal Dynasties and to the Tamil Countries of South India, and other geographical locations within, that were known to him during the period of the Mahabharatha war. I trust same will be of much interest to the research - scholars and students of Tamil History, and append below same for their reading.

I have selected the version of "Mahabharatha" translated into English Prose by “Mr Kisari Mohan Ganguli” from the original Sanskrit Text of Sage Viysa, and published by Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers (Pvt) Ltd, New Delhi, India, from which the following have been extracted.

------------------------------------------------------

[1] ".......Dhritarashtra (i.ee.Thiritarasra) said, ‘Hear O Sanjaya the celestial feats of Vasudeva feats that Govinda achieved and the like of which no otheer person hath ever been able to achieve......The mighty Krishna also slew the valiant king of Chedis.......all these he vanquished in battle. The Avantis......the Cholas, the Pandyas......as also Sakas, and the Yavanas with followers were all vanquished by him ........’

MAHABHARATHA - DRONA PARVA, PAGE 23.

Observation:
From the above it is noted that Lord Krishna defeated the Cholas and Pandyas in a battle prior to Baratha war .

[2] "........When that host was being thus struck and slain by heroic warriors, the Parthas headed by Vrikodara advance against us. They consisted of Dhrishtayumna and Sikhandin, and the five sons of Draupadi, and the Prabhadrakes, and Satyaki, and Chekitana with the Dravida forces, and the Pandyas, the Cholas, and the Keralas, surrounded by a mighty array, all possessed of broad chests, long arms, tall statures an large eyes. Decked with ornaments, possessed of red teeth, endued with the prowess of infuriate elephants, attired in robes of diverse colours, smeared with powere scents, armed with swords and nooses, capable of restraining mightty elephants, companions in death, and never eserting one other, equipped with quivers, bearing bows adorne with long locks, an agreeable in speech were the combatants of the infantry files led by Sayaki, belonging to Andhra tribe, retinue with fierce forms and great energy. Other brave warriors such as the Chedis, the Panchalas, the Kaikayas, the Karushas, the Kosalas, the Kanchis, and the Maghadhas also rushed forward........"

MAHABHARATHA - KARNA PARVA, PAGE 25. KULUTAS PAGE 26

Observation:
From the above it is very clear Pandyas, Cholas, Keralas who were the Cheras, the Kanchis undoubtedly the Thondaimandala kings whose capital was at Kanchi. all fought on the side of the Pandavas. The above also describes of the warriors from the Tamil countries, their forces, valour, and armoury.

[3] ".......I behold the Ganga, the Satudru, the Sita, the Yamuna, and the Kausiki, the Charmanwati, the Vetravati, the Chandrabaga, the Saraswati, the Sindhu, the Vipasa, and the Godavari, the Vaswokasara, the Nalini and the Narmada, the Tamara, and the Venna also of delightful current and sacred waters, the Suvenna, the Krishna-venna, the Irama,and the Mahanadi, the Vitasti, O great king and that large river Cavery, the one also O tiger ! among men the Visalya and the Kimpuna also......"

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, VANAPARVA, PAGE 381

Observation:
From the above it is noted that in the days of Mahabaratha the river Cavery river would have been very wide with more flow of water as the pronoun “large river” is only used to river Cavery, when many of the other rivers of India was being referred simply as rivers in Mahabaratha.

[4] "Markandeya said `O bull of the Bharata race even Rama suffered unparalled misery, for the evil minded Ravana king of Rakshasas, having recourse to deceit and overpowering the vulture Jatayu forcibly carried away his wife Sita from his asylum in the woods. Indeed Rama with the help of Sugriva brought her back, constructing a bridge across the sea, and consuming Lanka with his keen-edged arrows........"

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, VANAPARVA, PAGE 533

Observation:
From the above we note Markandeya in explaining the sufferings undergone by kings prior to Pandavas, refers to the Rama and Ravana (king of Sri Lanka) - story being the Ramayana. Hence it is very clear Mahabaratha war took place after the Ramayana story.

[5] ".......then going to the south Karna vanquished the mighty charioteers and in Dakshinatya the Suta's son entered into conflict with Rukmi.......Having met with Rukmi, Karna repaired to Pandya and the mountain Sri. and by fighting he made Karala(Kerala ??) king Nila, Venudari's son and other best of kings living in the southern direction pay tribute....."

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, VANAPARVA, PAGE 502

Observation:
From the above we note Karna who was with the Kauravas went to Pandya country and the Kerala country down the southern region of India, and exacted tributes from them.

[6] "......The river Indus, the five rivers (of the Punjab) the Sone, the Devika the Saraswati, the Ganga, the Satakumba, the Sarayu, the Ganaki, the Charmanwati, the Mahi, the Medha, the Medhatithi the three rivers Tamravati the Vetravati and the Kausiki, the Tamasa the Narmada, the Godavari, the Vena the Upavena, the Bhima, the Vadawa the Bharati the Suprayoga, the Kaveri, the Murmura the Tungavenna, the Krishnavenna and the Kapila these rivers O Bharatha! are said to be the mothers of the fires......."

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, VANAPARVA, PAGE 451/52

Observation:
Here too reference is made to the river Kaveri (flowing through the Chola country)

[7] Krishnavenna ”.......Kshatriyas assembled in that amphitheatre, each desirous of winning of winning the daughter of Drupatha those princes Karna, Duryodhana, Salwa, Salya, Aswatthaman, Kratha, Sunitha, Vakra, the ruler of Kalinga, and Banga, Pandiya, Paundra, the ruler of Videha, the chief of the Yavanas, and many other sons and grandsons of kings, sovereigns of territories with eyes like lotus petals, one after another began to exhibit prowess for (winning) that maiden of unrivalled beauty.....”

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, ADIPARVA, PAGE 373/374

Observation:
From the above it is noted that the Pandya king and the Yavana king were among many others who exhibited their prowess to win the princess Draupathi at the Suyamvaram festivity.

[8] "........O king there are also four oceans, the river Bhagirathee, the Kalindi, the Vidisa, the Venwa, the Narmada of rapid current, the Vipasa, the Satadu, the Chandrabhaga, the Saraswati, the Iravati, the Vitasta, the Sindu, the Devanadi, the Godavari, Krishnavenwa, and that queen of rivers the Kaveri......."

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, SABAPARVA, PAGE 21

Observation:
Here too it is evident that during the days of Mahabaratha the river Kaveri (which flowed through the Chola country) was held in high esteem 'as queen of the rivers' by the North Indians among all other rivers of India.

[9] ".......the son of Pandu (Sahadeva)........the hero brought under his subjection and exacted tributes from Paundrayas and the Dravidas along with the Udrakeralas and the Andhras and the Talavanas the Kalingas and the Ushtrakarnikas and also the delightful city of Atavi and that of Yavanas......."

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, SABAPARVA, PAGE 65/66

Observation:
From he above we note one of the Pandava brothers namely Sahadeva exaced tributes from Dravidas and the kings of north Kerala.

[10] ".......O bull of the Bharata race having heard of king Yudhishthura's sacrifice hundreds of other Kshatriyas acquainted with the nature of the sacrifice with joyous hearts came there from various countries,........the kings of Vanga and Kalinga, and Akastha and Kuntala, and the kings of Malavas and the Andhrakas and the Dravidas and the Singhalas and the king of Kashmira........"

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, SABHAPARVA, PAGE 70/71

Observation:
We note from the above that among the many who came to attend the Yuthistra's sacrifice (Yaga) were the Dravidas, and the Singhalas of Sri Lanka.

[11] ".....and Vinda and Anuvinda of Avant Pandya......"

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, SABAPARVA, PAGE 86

Observation:
A reference is made to a Pandiya king

[12] ".......Duryodhana said O sinless one listen to me as I describe that large mass of wealth consisting of various kinds of tribute presented unto Yudhishthira by the kings of the earth......the kings of Chola and Pandya though they brought numberless jars of gold filled with fragrant sandal juice from the hills of Malaya, and loads of sandal and the aloe wood from the Dardduras hills and many gems of great brilliancy and fine cloths inlaid with gold didnot obtain permission to enter, and the king of the Singhalas gave those best of sea-born gems called the lapis lazuli and heaps of pearls also and hundreds of coverlets for elephants. And numberless dark-coloured men with the ends of their eyes red as copper attired in cloths decked with gems waited at the gate with those presents......"

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, SABAPARVA, PAGE 105

Observation
From the above we note the complete description of all items the Cholas the Pandyas and the Sinhalas from Sri Lanka brought to king Yuthistra as presents on the occasion of the great Yaga conducted by him.

[13] ".......and even Krishna himself.......addressing Yudhishthira said That prosperity which the sons of Pritha had acquired at Indraprastha and which unobtainable by other kings was beheld by me at the Rajasuya sacrifice at which besides I saw all kings even those of the Vangas and Angas and Paundras and Odras and Cholas and Dravidas and Andhakas and the chiefs of many islands and countries on the sea-board as also of frontier states including the rulers of the Sinhalas, the barbarous Mlecchas, the natives of Lanka, and all the kings of the west by hundreds, and all the chiefs of the sea-coast, and the kings of the Pahlavas and the Daradas and the various tribes of the Kiratas and Yavanas and Sakras and the Harahunas and Chinas ........"

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI VANAPARVA, PAGE 110

Observation:
Krishna himself personally saw the Cholas, Dravidas, and the Sinhalas being present at the Yaga sacrifice which he confirmed to Yuthistra.

[14] "........Proceeding next to the mountain Rishabha in Pandya worshipped by the gods, one obtains the merit of the Vajpeya sacrifice and rejoices in heaven. One should next proceed to the river Kaveri, frequented by Apsaras. Bathing there O monarch ! and obtaineth the merit of giving away a thousand kine. Touching next the waters of the tirtha called Kanya on the shores of the sea one is cleansed from every sin. Proceeding next to Gokarna celebrated over the three worlds and which is situate O best of kings ! in the midst of the deep (sea ??? - Trincomalee of Sri Lanka???)and referenced by all the worlds........worship the lord of Uma, one should worship Isana, fasting there for three nights. By this he acquireth the merit of the horse-sacrifce and the status of Gnapatya by staying there for twelve nights one's soul is clensed of all sins........"

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, VANAPARVA, PAGE 192

Observation:
Here we note the description of the mountain in the Pandya country, about the river Kaveri, the thirtha the Kanyakumari, and Gokarna, it seems to refer to the modern Thirukkoneswaram in north-east Sri Lanka, a Shiva shrine.

[15] "......Dhaumya continued, Listen O Bharata I shall now narrate to thee in detail according to my knowledge the sacred tirthas of the south......O Yudhishthira in the country of the Pandyas are the tirthas named Agastya and Varuna!and O bull among men there amongst the Pandavas (should be Pandiyas) is the thirtha called Kumaris. Listen O son of Kunti I shall now describe Tamraparni. In that asylum the gods had undergone penances impelled by the desire of obtaining salvation. In that region also is the lake of Gokarna which is celebrated over the three worlds hath an abundance of cool waters and is sacred auspicious and capable O child of producing great merit. That lake is extremely difficult of access to men of unpurified souls. Near to that thirtha is the sacred asylum of Agastya's disciple the mountain Devasabha which abounds in trees and grass and fruits and roots. And there also is the Vaiduryya mountain which is delightful abounding in gems capable of bestowing great merit. There on that mountain is the asylum of Agastya abounding in fruits roots and water.......'

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, VANAPARVA, PAGE 200/201

Observation:
Here a description is given on the sacred Thirthas of the Pandya country the Agastya, the Varuna, the Gokarna, of the mountains Devasabha and Vaidurya that were known during the Mahabaratha days.

[16] "........Radha's son of the Suta caste, an those mighty car-warriors who were his brothers,an the Kaikeyas, the Mallavas, the Madrakas the Dravidas of fierce prowress, the Yaudheyas, the Lalittyas, the Kshudrakas, the Usinaras, the Tundikeras, the Savitriputras, the Easterners, the Northerners, the Westerners and the southerners, O sire, have all been slain by Savyasachin......."

MAHABHARATHA - KARNA PARVA, PAGE 8

Observation:
Here the great valour of the Dravidas of this period is referred to by Viyasa.

[17] "........Being of such low origin, how can they be conversant with the duties ordained in the scriptures? The Karashakas, the Mahishakas, the Kalingas, the Keralas, the Karktakas, the Virakas, and other peoples of no religion (i.e.not practising Vedic Religion) one should always avoid....'

MAHABHARATHA - KARNA PARVA, PAGE 109

Observation:
This statement confirms, that during the Mahabharatha period the Keralas who were the original (Tamil) Cheras, had no Vedic rituals practiced in their country. It is understood from the other literary sources that Saivaism was the prevailing religion of this region during this period.

[18] ".......The Dravida, the Andhaka and the Niishada foot-soldiers, urged on by Satyaki, once more rushed towards Karna in that battle from desire of slaying him......."

MAHABHARATHA - KARNA PARVA, PAGE 122

Observation:
The above too confirms Dravidas fought against Karna of the Kaurava side.

[19] "........The mighty Pandya that foremost of all wielders of weapons has been slain in battle by the Pandavas, what can it be but destiny ?......"

MAHABHARATHA - SALYA PARVA, PAGE 5

Observation:
Here we note the Pandya as one the greatest among warriors killed in the war.

[20] ".......like one perfectly withdrawn from the world is a real Yogin of the Bhikshu order....."

MAHABHARATHA - UDYOGA PARVA, PAGE 81

Observation:
From the above the indication is given that the Mahabaratha took place after the birth of Buddha.

[21] ".........Vasudeva's son Krishna ......It was he that slew king Pandya by striking his breast against his, and moved down the Kalingas in battle. Burnt by him the city of Varanasi remained for many years without a king......"

MAHABHARATHA - UDYOGA PARVA, PAGE 115

Observation:
The above confirms that the Pandya king who participated in the Baratha war was killed by Krishna the son of Vasudeva.

[22] "Vasudeva said........Thou O Karna hast been born in this way. Thou art therefore morally the son of Pandu......O thou of mighty arms with thy brothers the Pandavas with yapas and homas and auspicious rites of diverse kinds performed in thy honour. Let the Dravidas with the Kuntalas, the Andhras an the Talacharas, Shuchupas, and the Venupas all walk before thee......."

MAHABHARATHA - UDYOGA PARVA, PAGE 270-271

Observation:
Dravidas are mentioned here again.

[23] "...........and the king of Magadha Jayatsena of great strength brought with him for Yudhishthira an Akshauhini of troops. And similarly Pandya who dwelt on the coast-land near the sea, came accompanied by troops of various kinds to Yudhishthira the king of kings....."

MAHABHARATHA - UDYOGA PARVA, PAGE 31

Observation:
From the above it is clear the Pandyas whose kingdom was adjacent to the sea in the south of India too came with large forces to asist the Pandava king Yuthistra.

[24] ".........O son of Kunti art indulging in similar bragging, be a man !........O Partha thou wishest in vain to conquer !........why art thou not able to realise the might of this vast army of the assembled monarchs......the Dravidas, the Andhras and the Kanchis, this host of many nations ready for battle......."

MAHABHARATHA - UDYOGA PARVA, PAGE 311

Observation:
The might of the forces of Dravidas and Kanchis are mentioned here. Kanchis probably refers to Thondaiman kings.

[25] "........The mighty Sarangadhwaja, endued with wealth of energy, the king of the Pandyas, on seeds of the hue of the moon's rays and decked with armour set with stones of lapis lazuli advanced upon Drona stretching his excellent bow......”

MAHABHARATHA - UDYOGA PARVA, PAGE ....?

Observation:
Here the Pandiyan King is mentioned by the name Saranga-dhwaja who was of great valour, and gives a description of his armour fitted with pearls (lapis lazuli).

[26] "Sanjaya said listen to me O king (Thiratharastra).......to the names of the provinces as I mention them. They are.......the Keralas......the Andhras.......There are other kingdoms O bull of Bharatha's race, in the south. They are the Dravidas, the Keralas (repeated again)......the Karanatakas......the Cholas......"

MAHABHARATHA - BHISHMA PARVA, PAGE 21& 22

Observartion:
Here the southern kingdoms of India namely the Kerala (the Cheras), Andhara, Dravidas, Karnatakas and the Cholas are mentioned. These are presenly called by a general term as the Dravidian States. Hence it is clear that the Sanjaya who was daily advicing the king Thiratharastra - father of Duriyodana and the sage Viyasa who wrote the Mahabaratha epic after the event, knew the Dravidian states of South India.

[27] ".......It is in consequence of the absencee of Brahmaanas from among them that the Sakas, the Yavanas, the Kamvojas and other Kshatriya tribes have fallen and degraded into thee status of Sudras. The Dravidas, the Kalingas, the Pulandas, he Usinaras, the Kolisarpas, the Mahishakas and other Kshatriyas havee in consequence of the absence of Brahmanas from among their midst become degraded nto Sudras...."

MAHABHARATHA - ANUSASANA PARVA, PAGE 157

Observation:
Dravidas have been mentioned here again.

[28] ".........the great river Lohita, Tamra, Aruna, Vetravathi, Parnasa, Gautami, the Godavari, Vena, Krishnavena, Dwija, Drishadvati, Kaveri, Vankhu, Mandakini Prayaga, Prabhasa........"

MAHABHARATHA - ANUSASANA PARVA, PAGE 390

Observation:
River Kaveri is mentioned again.

[29] ".........Then, O bull in Bharata's race, Nandini alarmed at the sight of Viswamitra's troops.......from her tail she brought forth an army of Palhavas, and from her udders an army of Dravidas and Sakas and from her womb an army of Yavanas and from her urine an army of Kanchis and from her sides an army of Savaras. And from the froth of her mouth came out hosts of Paundras and Kiratas, Yavanas, and Sinhalas and the barbarous tribes of Khasas and Chivukas and Pulindas and Chinas and Hunas and Keralas........"

MAHABHARATHA - BY K.M.GANGULI, ADI PARVA, PAGE 356

Observation:
Keralas (Cheras), Kanchis(Thondaimans), and Dravidas are mentioned here again.

The End
----------------------------------------------

[S.T.D.]

[20] ".......like one perfectly withdrawn from the world is a real Yogin of the Bhikshu order....."

MAHABHARATHA - UDYOGA PARVA, PAGE 81

Observation:
From the above further indication is given that the Mahabaratha took place after the birth of Buddha. We cannot associate Bikshu order as "Buddha Bikshu." Remember that translations of language change with times. A Bikshu can mean savant, mendicant, sanyasi, or someone who has renounced the world. Also, Buddha, an avatar of God, expounded a philosophy already in vogue but largely forgotten (as did Mahavira).

The brilliance of Buddha is that he institutionalized service (called Uzhavara Padai in Tamil), and philosophy (as did Adi Shankara later). This strategy was also adopted by Tamil Saints Appar and Sambandar.

[Slonopotam845]

Also, Buddha, an avatar of God, expounded a philosophy already in vogue but largely forgotten (as did Mahavira).

(red marking was done by me)
It is very unfortunate that a great non-believer of God had become avadhar of God. A simple way to reject Buddha's practical philosophies is to idealizehim as God and declare that he can only be praised (as supernatural human or avathar) but can't be followed. Another method is that absorbing the great part of his teachings and declare as part of the belief system which he had opposed. This is what the people of opponent belief system were/are doing!

[Slonopotam845]

Originally Posted by asitaraman Also, Buddha, an avatar of God, expounded a philosophy already in vogue but largely forgotten (as did Mahavira).

(red marking was done by me)
It is very unfortunate that a great non-believer of God had become avadhar of God. A simple way to reject Buddha's practical philosophies is to idealizehim as God and declare that he can only be praised (as supernatural human or avathar) but can't be followed. Another method is that absorbing the great part of his teachings and declare as part of the belief system which he had opposed. This is what the people of opponent belief system were/are doing! This is not an attempt to abbrogate or assimilate philosophies into one "religion." Buddha saw the injustice in society at that time and showed a way to ease peoples' suffering. If that is not an avatar/manifestation what else can be?

Would we reject Krishna as an avatar just because he debunked Sankhaya Yoga that was prevalent at that time? We should remember that "Hinduism" as we know it today was an amalgamation of many beliefs, faiths, and philosophies. While Buddhism has unique characteristics, the concept of ahimsa and service was not unknown.

Rgds, Aravind

[9mm_fan]

hindu chronology suggests that krishna lived 5000 yrs ago, and rama much much earlier. if they did exist....i think historical proof would be hard to come by.......just look at the lack of any firm dates given for the foundation of temples in the oldest temples in india thread.

[Lt_Apple]

Dear hariKrishnan Sir
It is difficult for me to understand Sangam Tamil without urai(as a anglo indian school educated guy,even Bharthi poems might need urai for me!!!).If you have time,please give the urai for your quotes. So, is that confirmed for sure that the 'aivar' is Pandavas and 'nutruvar' are kauravas.We had a discussion about this in Tamil Literature section where another senior hubber Idiappam doubted whether it meant Pandavas and Kauravas.

[LottiFurmann]

They have found some evidence that everything in the Ramayanam actually happened. A man made stone bridge was recently discovered between India and Sri Lanka.

http://www13.brinkster.com/tormel/photos_bridge67.html

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/An...yr.bridge.html

[TorryJens]

Please see the Tamil Literature Section. There we have a topic known as "Historical account of Mahabharatham war".We had a discussion on this "aivar" versus "nutravar".Also, some other purananuru poem mentioned Seetha and Rama and it is present in that topic too

[9mm_fan]

The present day history formation is based on the following.

1. Archeological proof

2. Linguistical proof

3. Biological proof

4. Geology and other earth chronological change

5.Anthropology of man and animals.

In the above, written literatures are not seriously dealt to obtain proof. Because all modern society depends only on scientifical
proof. Scientist think that epics are old stories. It is not the crime of stories. But the human beings who wrote these things always flatterers of certain real happenings. They may be stories of great happenings of yester years.

But there is always some truth lies on the basis of these stories.
Scientists should take this as informations and have to formulate certain theory and try to find the archeological proof to make the history perfect instead of avoiding them as stories.

For example in viviliam, old bible ,there was a story of nova and it tells 'tsunami' - 'Kadalkole'(Tamil) has occured and the migration of humans had been from south to North. The same references are there in tamil sangam literature.

In Mahabharatha there are stories written in various chronological time and there will be a difference of language Structure and that have to be discovered by liguistics like which portion belongs to which year. Because language will tend to change time to time due to various influences. 8)

Hence certainly in old epic we can pick up theme for invention.

Regarding singalese they were migrated from India during Asokas period through Kalinga or Oriya because through tamil nadu they cannot go as chera,chola and pandya were separte kingdoms.

Singalam-Singam+alam---Singam=Sin+am ;a tamil sinam turned into sin in sanskrit/pragrid/north paly and alam is tamil word to specify place which makes singalam.

yours
f.s.gandhi

[Fegasderty]

Moderators
If the above posting hurts sentiments of any religion,please delete it.

[Ifroham4]

Dear Vira-Rajendra,

Thanks for your Valuable Information... and Many Thanks for all the Pains you have taken... to post here in so much elaboration.

But I have One doubt....

According to this History, you quoted ... Sinhalas... existed even during the Mahabhaaratha period. ... Does it mean the present Sinhala-Race with a Separate Language and Unique culture of their own?...

(1) As far as I know... the whole of the present Srilanka was a part of a Tamilian Chola-Empire ... who in the subsequent days gave "Refuge" to the Eloped Royal-family from Kalinga... as well as another such group of a Tribal-Leader from Africa. This fact was accepted by the Tamil-friendly Srilankan political parties, who released a Postal stamp .. showing the Sinhalese... rushing by boats... while the Tamilians at the Sri-Lanka shore... Wellcoming by both hands with Human-warmth. ...

... Whereas... your Story is different?

(2) Regarding the Name Singala... Was it any Tamilian who had a Name as Simha got later on converted to a different culture...

... similar to a Tamilian-ruled Malai-naadu ... became Malaya... and then Malaysia now .

Please clarify.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

Originally Posted by r_kk Originally Posted by asitaraman Also, Buddha, an avatar of God, expounded a philosophy already in vogue but largely forgotten (as did Mahavira).

(red marking was done by me)
It is very unfortunate that a great non-believer of God had become avadhar of God. A simple way to reject Buddha's practical philosophies is to idealizehim as God and declare that he can only be praised (as supernatural human or avathar) but can't be followed. Another method is that absorbing the great part of his teachings and declare as part of the belief system which he had opposed. This is what the people of opponent belief system were/are doing! This is not an attempt to abbrogate or assimilate philosophies into one "religion." Buddha saw the injustice in society at that time and showed a way to ease peoples' suffering. If that is not an avatar/manifestation what else can be?

Would we reject Krishna as an avatar just because he debunked Sankhaya Yoga that was prevalent at that time? We should remember that "Hinduism" as we know it today was an amalgamation of many beliefs, faiths, and philosophies. While Buddhism has unique characteristics, the concept of ahimsa and service was not unknown.

Rgds, Aravind In essence Buddha was against God. Any association to God and Buddha is an insult for the greatest son of India.

[doctorzlo]

There are evidences to prove that Jesus lived. Is there similar evidence to say that Rama and Krishna lived? Or they are just characters in our epics which teaches that "Dharma wins". My intension is to find out the truth and nothing more. Thanks.

[doctorzlo]

In Mahabaratha, Amba will worship Lord Muruga and he will present her with a garland by saying that THE ONE WHO WEARS THIS GARLAND WILL BECOME A SHATRU OF BHEESHMA.
This shows that Tamilnadu was in existence as Muruga is a Tamil God basically
This also proves that Kandhapuranam took place before Mahabaratha.

Anybody can share further information on this please.

[Slonopotam845]

Balaji
In Tamil literature section, we had some topics where a poet has praised cheraman ilanchetchenji(forgot his name) as the person who provided food to the Pandavas during the kurukshetra battle.

[LottiFurmann]

Balaji
In Tamil literature section, we had some topics where a poet has praised cheraman ilanchetchenji(forgot his name) as the person who provided food to the Pandavas during the kurukshetra battle.

Would you be able to handle this posting in TSCII? The posting is in Tamil. References to Ramayana and Mahabaratha in Tamil Sangam Classics are extensive. The particular verse you are speaking about is Verse 2 of puranAnuru. chEraman perum sOtru uthiyanj chEralAthan is the King and muranjiyUr mudinAga-rAyar is the poet. The following are the lines.


«Äį́Çô ÒÃÅ¢ ³ÅÕ¼ý º¢¨Éþ
¿¢Äó¾¨Äì ¦¸¡ñ¼ ¦À¡Äõâó Ðõ¨À
®¨Ãõ À¾¢ýÁÕõ ¦À¡ÕиÇò ¦¾¡Æ¢Âô
¦ÀÕ狀¡üÚ Á¢ÌÀ¾õ ŨÃ¡Р¦¸¡Îò§¾¡ö.

(ÒÈ ¿¡ëÚ)

A discussion on the subject went on in Yahoo group, Marabilakkiam http://groups.yahoo.com/group/marabilakkiyam and Agathiyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agathiyar since there was a dispute on the reference 'aiyvar' and 'nUtruvar' may not mean Pandavas and Kauravas. My friend, Madhurabharati, then went extensively into various Sangam Classics and gave a reference of various verses that point to this particular Chera King. I give below the particular references cited by my friend, Madhurabharati.

Quote:


«ýÒûÇ †Ã¢, ÀÍÀ¾¢,

´Õ ºÁÂò¾¢ø þó¾ ÁýɨÉô ÀüÈ¢ Å¢ÅÃÁ¡¸ ¬öóÐ ÌÈ¢ôÒ¸û
±Îò¾ÐñÎ. ¬É¡ø ŢâòÐ ±Ø¾î ºÁÂõ Å¡öì¸Å¢ø¨Ä. þ§¾¡
ÌÈ¢ôÒ¸û ÁðÎõ:

¿¢Äõ ¿£÷ ÅÇ¢ Å¢ÍõÒ ±ýÈ ¿¡ý¸¢ý
«ÇôÒ «Ã¢¨Â§Â
¿¡û §¸¡û ¾¢í¸û »¡Â¢Ú ¸¨É «Æø
³óÐ ´ÕíÌ Ò½÷ó¾ Å¢Çì¸òÐ «¨É¨Â
§À¡÷ ¾¨ÄÁ¢Ìò¾ ®÷ ³õÀ¾¢ýÁ¦Ã¡Î
ÐôÒò ШȧÀ¡¸¢Â н¢×¨¼ ¬ñ¨Á
«ìÌÃý «¨É ¨¸Åñ¨Á¨Â§Â

«ìÌÃý - þ¨¼§ÂØ ÅûÇø¸Ç¢ø ´ÕÅý;

(À¾¢üÚôÀòÐ: À¡¼ø 14)


µ÷ ³Å÷ ®¨ÃõÀ¾¢ýÁ÷ ¯¼ý¦ÈØó¾
§À¡Ã¢ø ¦ÀÕ狀¡Ú §À¡üÈ¡Ð ¾¡ÉÇ¢ò¾
§ºÃý, ¦À¡¨ÈÂý, Á¨ÄÂý ¾¢ÈõÀ¡Êì
¸¡÷¦ºö ÌÆø ¬¼ ¬§¼¡§Á¡ °ºø;
¸¼õÒ ±È¢ó¾Å¡À¡Ê ¬¼¡§Á¡ °ºø!

(º¢ÄôÀ¾¢¸¡Ãõ: Å¡úòÐ측¨¾: 25)

«ùÅ¡ö ÅÇ÷À¢¨È ÝÊî ¦ºùÅ¡ö
«ó¾¢ Å¡ÉòÐ ¬Î Á¨Æ ¸ÎôÀ
¦Åñ §¸¡ðÎ þÕõ À¢½õ ÌÕ¾¢ ®÷ôÀ
®÷ ³õÀ¾¢ýÁÕõ ¦À¡ÕÐ ¸ÇòÐ «Å¢Â 415

§À÷ «Á÷ì¸¼ó¾ ¦¸¡Îﺢ ¦¿Îó§¾÷
¬Ã¡î ¦ºÕÅ¢ý ³Å÷ §À¡Ä
«¼í¸¡ò ¾¡¨É§Â¡Î ¯¼ýÚ §ÁøÅó¾
´ýÉ¡ò ¦¾ùÅ÷ ¯¨ÄÅ¢¼òÐ ¬÷òÐ
¸îº¢§Â¡§É ¨¸Åñ §¾¡ýÈø 420

(¦¿Î¿ø Å¡¨¼)


±Ã¢¸Å÷Ò ¯ñ¼ ¸Ã¢ÒÈô ¦ÀÕ¿¢Äô
À£Î¦¸Ø ÁÕí¸¢ý µÎÁ¨Æ ÐÈó¦¾É
°É¢ø ¡¨É ¯ÂíÌõ §ÅÉ¢ø
ÁÈôÀ¨¼ì ̾¢¨Ã Á¡È¡ ¨Áó¾¢ý
ÐÈì¸õ ±ö¾¢Â ¦¾¡ö¡ ¿øÄ¢¨º
Ó¾¢Â÷ô§À½¢Â ¯¾¢Â狀Ãø
¦ÀÕ狀¡Ú ¦¸¡Îò¾ »¡ý¨È, þÕõÀø
ÜÇ¢î ÍüÈõ ÌÆ£þ¢Õó ¾¡íÌ

(«¸¿¡ëÚ: 233)

¿¡Î¸ñ «¸üȢ ¯¾¢Â狀Ãü
À¡Êî ¦ºýÈ À⺢Ä÷ §À¡Ä
¯Å þÉ¢ Å¡Æ¢! §¾¡Æ¢!

(«¸¿¡ëÚ: 65; Á¡ãÄÉ¡÷)


End of quote.

Though the references are extensive, they are not exhaustive. It is to be remembered that these speak about just only one incident, namely, the particular Chera King feeding both Kauravas and Pandavas ( and not to Pandavas alone, Vigopp, please )

Many more incidents of the Mahabaratha and Ramayana are found in ancient Tamil Literature.

[Slonopotam845]

Ancient Tamilian.... the Global-Humanity

// .... the whole of the present Srilanka was a part of a Tamilian Chola-Empire ... who in the subsequent days gave "Refuge" to the Eloped Royal-family from Kalinga... as well as another such group of a Tribal-Leader from Africa. This fact was accepted by the Tamil- friendly Srilankan political parties, who released a Postal stamp too.... picturising the Sinhalese... rushing by boats... while the Tamilians with both hands welcomed the Migrators with Human-warmth.//

My above statement gets fortified by two facts....

(1) The Sinhala Script is similar to Oriya Script, with abundant admixture of Sanskrit words similar to Oriya, while the rest are exclusively Tamilians only (barring the subsequent Europin-mixes) .... irrespective of their Religious faith as either Hindus or Muslims.

(2) The Tourist Paahiyaan's Notes say... that Sangamithra, the Daughter of the Emperor Asoka spread Budhism by travelling wide around various countries in Asia... spending maximum time in Sri-Lanka, Thailand, China, Indonesia regions. So she must have influenced these Migrated Oriyas of Srilanka into Budhism.

(3) On observation of the Bodily Physical Features in general of most of the Sinhalese, as we find now, we are able to believe the Historical assertion that they are from the Racial-mix up Ancestry of Ancient Indian Oriyas plus the Africans .... both migrated from India and Africa during the ancient days, after the fall of Chola empire.

This is the Factual-History of Tamilian-developed Sri-Lanka, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand regions... which were just either Fallow-lands or Dense Forests... unfit for Human-inhabitation.... until then... but were developed by means of... "Hard-Toil".... risking their lives ... and thus enriched those unworthy lands as worthy Human-inhabitations... or Nations.... by the so called Tamilians of ancient days from India....

... So to say... these pieces of Lands... were the Extenson of India.....

.... Similar to the Case of America... USA... the Extension of various Europian countries...

... with only difference.... that all those were only Tamilians... and who alone were Adventurous enough... as their Name itself means in Sanskrit ... as Dravidians (Migrants) !!!

Now.... Vonda vandha Pidaarihalh... Voor-Pidaariyai... virattuhinrhana..... !!!

Whereas Tamilians.... all over the world ....still cherish and are proud of their Ancient Gospel ..

... Yaadhum-Voorae Voorae..... Yaavarum Kaelhir....

.... Because the Tamilians ever... "Believe" ... their Innate-Human-Spirit of... "Universal-Love"...

[Drugmachine]

Excellent Virarajendra sir, I will go through your post and clarify any doubts I may have with you soon, when I get some time.

[S.T.D.]

brought forward