[Raj_Copi_Jin]

It is an excellant link given, but Irawatham Mahadevan has made clear that reading of Those Pictograms from Right to Left as a Forgery and Sanskrit Traddtion is the Cotinuity of Indus Civilisation.

I reproduce the actual views of Iravadham Mahadevan as given in "The Hindu":

Mr. Mahadevan commented that the latest discovery was very strong evidence that the Neolithic people of Tamil Nadu and the Indus Valley people "shared the same language, which can only be Dravidian and not Indo-Aryan." But that said, one of my friends is of the view that the number of signs is too small to arrive at any conclusion. Can anyone throw more light on this? Or perhaps, should we wait for more evidence to surface..?

[LottiFurmann]

Hi Moderators
Is there any way we can reduce the noise, intentional forgery of literature, just plain blabbering, verbose filth with no stuff, false claims with no evidence that is being produced by devapriya ?
I sincerely feel that the quality of the forum is going down by the articles of such clowns.

[S.T.D.]

Friends,

Let me thank for Mahadevan showing his self fully open.

I shall give Verbatim of Iravatham Mahadevan's Interviews Shortly.

Friends we need to understand Tamil Wrting method evolved from Sanskrit and this is confrimed by Tholkappiyam to 19th Century writing method.

Let us wait for more details.

Devapriya

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

riends we need to understand Tamil Wrting method evolved from Sanskrit and this is confrimed by Tholkappiyam to 19th Century writing method.
From "puujyam" came a "raajyam". This was a theory espoused by theologians.

Now it looks like you can apply it to linguistics too.

Sans had no script. From no script came the Tamil script??

Yes yes!! apply the puujyam - raajyam theory, you can get your argument through.....!!

shall give Verbatim of Iravatham Mahadevan's Interviews Shortly. Let's have it quickly. Were you the compere?

[doctorzlo]

Nacchinarkiniyar suggests that the forms of the letters of the ancient Tamil script were derived entirely from geometric objects, such as the square, the circle, and the cross, which were combined with each other, and modified with other lines, to form the old script which the Tolkappiyam describes.

...in which context, some of you might find this article interesting:

The Structures of Letters and Symbols throughout Human History Are Selected to Match Those Found in Objects in Natural Scenes

Mark A. Changizi, Qiong Zhang, Hao Ye, and Shinsuke Shimojo.

ABSTRACT: Are there empirical regularities in the shapes of letters and other human visual signs, and if so, what are the selection pressures underlying these regularities? To examine this, we determined a wide variety of topologically distinct contour configurations and examined the relative frequency of these configuration types across writing systems, Chinese writing, and nonlinguistic symbols. Our first result is that these three classes of human visual sign possess a similar signature in their configuration distribution, suggesting that there are underlying principles governing the shapes of human visual signs. Second, we provide evidence that the shapes of visual signs are selected to be easily seen at the expense of the motor system. Finally, we provide evidence to support an ecological hypothesis that visual signs have been culturally selected to match the kinds of conglomeration of contours found in natural scenes because that is what we have evolved to be good at visually processing.

available at:
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AN/...1010/41010.html

[Drugmachine]

Originally Posted by devapriya It is an excellant link given, but Irawatham Mahadevan has made clear that reading of Those Pictograms from Right to Left as a Forgery and Sanskrit Traddtion is the Cotinuity of Indus Civilisation.

I reproduce the actual views of Iravadham Mahadevan as given in "The Hindu":

Mr. Mahadevan commented that the latest discovery was very strong evidence that the Neolithic people of Tamil Nadu and the Indus Valley people "shared the same language, which can only be Dravidian and not Indo-Aryan." But that said, one of my friends is of the view that the number of signs is too small to arrive at any conclusion. Can anyone throw more light on this? Or perhaps, should we wait for more evidence to surface..? Though I dont agree with Mahadevan completely on this, it makes some sense to think of Indus script to be tamil or some archaeic form of tamil. If we analyze the morphology of both tamil and sanskrit, we can find that both these languages have followed some unique pattern in word formation - tamil adding letters to right of root word and sanskrit left of root word. Of course we find some words that have the roots in middle. These could have been borrowed or could have been the result of combining two words.
If we see the growth of these languages, complex words have been added later in an uniform manner. So I assume that the primitive form should have consisted only monosyllabic roots. I notice that these monosyllabic roots, may be by coincidence, are actually sounds related to their meanings - like the sounds made by animals or by nature.
Primitive humans should have named things he saw by the sounds related to them. Then as their need for words grew, they could have started forming complex words. The first words should have been nouns and the others should have formed much later.
Tamil is noted for having multiple words meaning the same. So a primitive word could have had a lot of meanings and the language should have been spoken with the help of nouns - like "stone food" could have actually meant "kill the food (animal) with a stone tool" or something like that. The words for stone and food could have been like - kal, un. Since the vocabulary in this state is minimal, we dont need to invent any syllables or alphabets and can be represented by X - kal, Y - un. This could have actually been the root of all languages - later developing into different languages based on the people's practices and need - some could have continued monosyllabic words like chinese(analytic), some could have evolved agglutative like tamil and sanskrit, some could have developed into fusional languages like most languages.
About the word order, it could have been in both ways, though I guess right to left to be more probable. Most people are right handed. Right handed people normally hold the chisel with their left hand and hammer with right. So, it is a lot easier for a right handed person to chisel from right to left than from left to right. This also suggests that the earliest writing could have been from right to left till formation of some complex words. Then, at some point of time, some people could have started reading these from left to right and started creating new words based on these, leading to a new language. This new language could have been prakrit, which could have been quite messy since some words would have not been meaningful. So they could have cleaned their new language, creating sanskrit.

So, it is possible that the indus script is a script indeed and could be morphemes, comprising only of nouns.

[PhillipHer]

There is an interesting discussion of this work at:
http://www.telecomtally.com/blog/200...es_writin.html
The following statemeant is not meant to refute any thing. Mark Changizi seems to have written book about the brain and is now writing an enormous number of papers on diverse topics to fit his theory. May be a breakthrough but I do not have any idea about him.

[Fegasderty]

There is an interesting discussion of this work at:
http://www.telecomtally.com/blog/200...es_writin.html
The following statemeant is not meant to refute any thing. Mark Changizi seems to have written book about the brain and is now writing an enormous number of papers on diverse topics to fit his theory. May be a breakthrough but I do not have any idea about him.

Duane Smith's comment is interesting, I would like to see what Mark Changizi's views of cuneiform are. As far as Ugaratic is concerned, though, I seem to remember reading a relatively recent study which argued that its resemblence to cuneiform could equally be the result of adapting the Canaanite script to being written on clay tablets, and did not necessarily indicate descent from cuneiform proper.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

The vedic civilisation which was the Indus valley civilisation was a continuity of the civilisation which came from the south Deccan... Vedic - culture ? civilization? or religious culture? or just a collection of hymns/chantings/concepts, with no structured revelation of religion? How wld u describe?

[Paul Bunyan]

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/05/13...1322590300.htm

[Ifroham4]

Friends,

We are all trapped by falsehoods spread by Some False movements in the name of Thani Tamil and Dravidian movements.

I quote Verbatim from the Interview of Iravatham Mahadevan given in the past downloaded from www.harappah.com

//14. The Indus and Dravidian Cultural Relationship

Q: How do you conceive of the relationship between the Indus culture that existed five thousand years ago and contemporary Dravidian culture here in South India? Prof. Dani, for example, says that doesn't believe that the Indus language was Dravidian because there is just not enough cultural continuity between what is today in South India and what was then in the Indus Valley.

A: I think any direct relationship between the Indus Valley and the deep Dravidian south is unlikely because of the vast gap in space and time. Something like 2,000 years and 2,000 miles. But linguistically, if the Indus script is deciphered, we may hopefully find that the proto-Dravidian roots of the Harappan language and South Indian Dravidian languages are similar. This is a hypothesis.

If you ask what similarity is likely to emerge, the first and most important similarity is linguistic. Culturally, there is a problem. The modern speakers of Dravidian languages are the result of millennia long intermixture of races. There are no Aryans in India, nor are there any Dravidians. Those who talk about Dravidians in the political sense, I do not agree with them at all. There are no Dravidian people or Aryan people - just like both Pakistanis and Indians are racially very similar. We are both the product of a very long period of intermarriage, there have been migrations. You cannot now racially segregate any element of the Indian population. Thus there is no sense in saying that the people in Tamil Nadu are the inheritors of the Indus Valley culture. You could very well say that people living in Harappa or Mohenjo-daro today are even more likely to be the inheritors of that civilization.

In fact, I plow a somewhat lonely furrow in this. I often say that if the key to the Indus script linguistically is Dravidian, then culturally the key to the Indus script is Vedic. What I mean is that the cultural traits of the Indus Valley civilization are likely to have been absorbed by the successor Indo-Aryan civilization in Punjab and Sindh, and that the civilization in the far south would have changed out of recognition. In any case, the present South Indian civilization is already the product of both Indo-Aryan and Dravidian cultures, and the language itself is completely mixed up with both elements//

Tamil does not mean Indus Scripts and None of the Dechiphering, let it be Parbola or Iravatham Mahadevan has not solved the complete Corpus and all attempts have failed and they both accept it.

Devapriya

[radikal]

//We are all trapped by falsehoods spread by Some False movements in the name of Thani Tamil and Dravidian movements.// Why you say "trapped"? how trapped? What falsehoods were spread? What is meant by "False Movement"?
As for me, I am least concerned with any political movement in India. You have attacked these so-called movements many times over, but I do not know why.

To summarize:

1.Indus language was not Dravidian because there is just not enough cultural continuity between South India and the then Ind. Valley.

2 the vast gap in space and time.

3. But linguistically, with the Indus script deciphered, possible similarity proto-Dravidian roots of the Harappan language and South Indian Dravidian languages ( a hypothesis.)

4 culturally the key to the Indus script is Vedic. ( = the cultural traits of the Indus Valley civilization are likely to have been absorbed by the successor Indo-Aryan civilization in Punjab and Sindh) //Tamil does not mean Indus Scripts and None of the Dechiphering, let it be Parbola or Iravatham Mahadevan has not solved the complete Corpus and all attempts have failed and they both accept it.// The script had not been deciphered by these persons quoted by you but they do not rule out future solution. Possibility of linguistic similarity is also not ruled out. They are giving extraneous reasons such as lack of cultural continuity in terms of space and time to say that it is not Dravidian. It does not prove your point - it leaves things dangling for you. At the same time I would reject the passage because the authors gave extraneous reasons.

THESE GUYS SHOULD MERELY LOOK AT THE WRITING, EXAMINE IT AND SAY WHAT IT IS AND SHOULD NOT GO INTO CULTURE, SPACE AND TIME. THE GUYS ALSO ACCEPT THAT THEIR VIEW IS MINORITY VIEW (lonely furrow).

AS SANSKRIT HAD NO WRITING SYSTEM THEN, SANSKRIT HAS NO CLAIM TO ANYTHING.

[TorryJens]

I Mahadevan is very clearly stating "But linguistically, if the Indus script is deciphered, we may hopefully find that the proto-Dravidian roots of the Harappan language and South Indian Dravidian languages are similar. "

Do you understand this statement devapriya ?

He also states "I often say that if the key to the Indus script linguistically is Dravidian, then culturally the key to the Indus script is Vedic. What I mean is that the cultural traits of the Indus Valley civilization are likely to have been absorbed by the successor Indo-Aryan civilization in Punjab and Sindh, and that the civilization in the far south would have changed out of recognition."

He here means that the vedics copied the culture of IV people, who by genetic lineage(however pure it may be) are in south now. The Originators of the IV civilizations were a bunch of smart people that evolve culturaly over time and space. While the bunch of m***** vedics are still stuck with those outdated ideas of the now modern southerners.

Now I understand the reason for devapriya's meaning less posts, I strongly advise her to get into some basic english course. So that she can understand what others are writing !

[doctorzlo]

Darwin said that each species evolve in function of his environment, there is no exception. This is for me very logical.

Human evolution is too very linked to the place where he lives.

Northern anciant cities could never be same as the southern cities.
Each place have his proper culture.

But i think that nothing can born from nothing, so the evolution of the human civilisation is mainly due to a continuity of a civilisation !

The question is where exactly it born...

I think we must begin to give the definition of what is a civilisation...

[Big A]

Friends,

Aryan coming stories are totally now dropped and I QUOTE the latest views.

//In his recent edition of Survey of Hinduism (Sunny, State University of New York Press 1994), Professor Klaus Klostermaier has noted important objections to this theory. He suggests that the weight of evidence is against it and that it should no longer be regarded as the main model of interpreting ancient India.
He states (pg.34): "Both the spatial and the temporal extent of the Indus civilization has expanded dramatically on the basis of new excavations and the dating of the Vedic age as well as the theory of an Aryan invasion of India has been shaken. We are required to completely reconsider not only certain aspects of Vedic India, but the entire relationship between Indus civilization and Vedic culture." Later he adds (pg.3: "The certainty seems to be growing that the Indus civilization was carried by the Vedic Indians, who were not invaders from Southern Russia but indigenous for an unknown period of time in the lower Central Himalayan regions."//

Please go through them

Devapriya

[softy54534]

This month's issue of Frontline has three articles on the Adichanallur excavations, which may be of interest to hubbers following this section.

About what the latest finds tell us:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2213...1000106500.htm

About the inscriptions found in the last round of excavations:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2213...1000307000.htm

General background to the excavations:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2213...1000207200.htm

[Big A]

what the hell are you talking about?

[Ifroham4]

Friends,
Can anybody link me to total details of Aadichanallur site please.

[radikal]

//tamil history which is the basis for indian, why, the world history//

Mr. Gandhi Vandayar, no offense or anything, but can you please stop repeating the exact same thing over and over again. I agree with many of the things you have said earlier(ex. Indians originated from the Indus valley area, AIT is false, etc.), but i cant really agree with the idea that Tamil is the root of everything because there is not significant scientific or archeological evidence.

[doctorzlo]

Very good, Ramraghav sinthu valley language is tamil. People's migration happened from South to North.

More archeological sites of Tamil Nadu and south India have to be explored much.

Indian Ocean studies should be also started. After Russian Alexandar Gondarav 30 years ago, no single exploration misssion is started up in Indian Ocean.

Tamils Ancient history shall be the world ancient history.

f.s.gandhi