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10-12-2005, 08:00 AM
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#1 |
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Dear All,
There were recent excavations in Maamallapuram adjacent to Shore temple where some remains of a temple , Lion and other small small things have been excavated. Infact I saw them also 6 months back. Wish to know if there is any further development on this topic . Besides, I remember a satellite picture capturing thin lines between Rameshwaram and Srilanka … which was supposed to be the bridge … Was there any link established earlier between India and Srilanka. Can somebody enlighten us on this please |
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11-25-2005, 03:24 PM
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#2 |
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And yes, it would be really good to have the world's leading experts involved. But that's the way the ASI works - they found urns from around 500 BC with Tamil Brahmi inscriptions in Adichannulur a few weeks ago, and they didn't think of involving Iravatham Mahadevan who's right there in Chennai! Like all bureaucracies, the ASI has its own process to follow with their own set of experts. In due time, they will publish their findings so other also can do their value addition. The ASI works more like stringers and reporters reporting what they see with soem editorial work. While Iravatham Mahadevan is more like a columnist or editorial/op-ed writer. Imagine if we expect every stringer/reporter to involve an editor every time they churn out a story; the process becomes unsustainable. Also, there is a difference between archaelogical work and archaelogical interpretation. Mr. Mahadevan is in the latter category as are numerous other researchers. Rgds, Aravind Sitaraman |
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Originally Posted by jaiganes Thanks aravindhan for posting the link. I was trying to get the link for a different thread. There seems to be very slow progress on this. Also Indian government's archaic archaeological survey is so guarded that it doesn't invite foreign scholars and teams which have better expertise in tools like carbon dating and bone fragment analysis in this venture. Adichanallur find IMHO is a National Geographic special.|
11-25-2005, 03:29 PM
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From the Hindu: Rgds, Aravind Sitaraman |
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12-21-2005, 08:00 AM
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Thanks aravindhan for posting the link. I was trying to get the link for a different thread. There seems to be very slow progress on this. Also Indian government's archaic archaeological survey is so guarded that it doesn't invite foreign scholars and teams which have better expertise in tools like carbon dating and bone fragment analysis in this venture. Adichanallur find IMHO is a National Geographic special. And yes, it would be really good to have the world's leading experts involved. But that's the way the ASI works - they found urns from around 500 BC with Tamil Brahmi inscriptions in Adichannulur a few weeks ago, and they didn't think of involving Iravatham Mahadevan who's right there in Chennai! |
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01-23-2006, 08:00 AM
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#5 |
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Not only in Adichanallur. If we excavate the things in poompuhar,thondi,musiri and also down south Indian ocean all will speak about tamil history which is the basis for indian, why, the world history.
Some of them have been deciphered. The Indian government is thinking that Indian concept will go. But all these excavations will only strenghthen India. Otherwise some westeners have to come to do this job. In thirsty to know their (european) history they have deciphered all these things and accidentally tamilian history has been found out. |
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02-02-2006, 08:00 AM
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#6 |
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The vedic civilisation which was the Indus valley civilisation was a continuity of the civilisation which came from the south Deccan...
From South to North , cities and civilisations rised and were destroyed.. civilisations born and died successively. Is it not the meaning of the "Adam's" Bridge ? (The legend say that Adam (the 'first' man) from Ilankai began his migration towards the North, the Adam's Bridge name come from this legend). Firstly they thought that Greece was the first civilisation, after they descended in Egyptia and said civilisation began in Egyptia, after came the discovery of Babylonia and Sumeria and they pushed back the civilisation to Mesopotamia, a century ago we found Harappa and the other Indus Valley cities, the civilisation is now near the dead Saraswati river, and finally my question is where will this descent will stop.... ? Indian scientists and historians and Graham Hancock found very anciant remain in Tamil Nadu and in the Bay of Gujarat underwater. My thinking and opinion is that the legend of the 3 Great flood is not just a myth..... |
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03-06-2006, 08:00 AM
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#7 |
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Tamil Brahmi inscriptions and other archaeological finds
From the Hindu:
http://www.hindu.com/2005/04/03/stor...0301931400.htm CHENNAI, APRIL 2. In an important discovery, the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), Chennai Circle, has located the habitational site of the Iron Age people who were buried in big urns at Adichanallur, 24 km from Tirunelveli town in Tamil Nadu. Although several urn burial sites such as at Amirthamangalam and Perumbair, both near Chengalpattu, have been discovered in the State, this is the first time the place where these people lived has been found. The site discovered now is on the north and north-western slopes of the urn-burial mound at Adichanallur. It is a few hundred metres away from the burial fields. T. Satyamurthy, Superintending Archaeologist, ASI, Chennai Circle, said, "We have succeeded in locating the habitational site at Adichanallur. We are excavating in a place where we are getting the materials of a town where people actually lived." Two things are confirmed, he said. First, the settlement was inside a fortified town. "The fortification wall has been traced. There is a regular alignment wall." Second, the potters' quarters have been found inside the fortification wall. Discovery of three potter's kilns with ash, charcoal and broken pots showed wet pots/urns were baked with fire. Artefacts, including an iron knife, carnelian beads, terracotta beads, couex beads, bone implements and potsherds with graffiti have also come to light. According to Mr. Satyamurthy, the urn-burial site could be dated "to about 1,000 B.C," that is 3,000 years ago. "Contemporary to that, we have got the habitational site." |
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03-26-2006, 08:00 AM
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#8 |
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 //tamil history which is the basis for indian, why, the world history//  now, please dont shoot out your IDIOTIC questions... we are not here to answer to people who had already decided on WHAT TO AGREE AND WHAT NOT TO AGREE ....
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04-01-2006, 08:00 AM
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#9 |
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04-03-2006, 08:00 AM
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#10 |
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HL :
I don't think that Indians originated from the Indus valley area.... It's false Indians originated somewhere from the south of actual Indian continent ... in my personal opinion. Now the place is underwater...(Kumari Kandam) If Indus Valley area is the place of birth of Indians, why have we found the most anciant humans skeleton in south.... ?? (I don't talk about East Africa where Tumai was found but India.) Our knowledge is very little...Our past is very hughe... The archeological evidence of that , are the underwater cities found in the Bay of Cambay and in Mahabalipuram. read that , cutted and pasted from : http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/o...1800030200.htm Vedic literature and the Gulf of Cambay discovery It is sad to note how intellectuals in India are quick to denigrate the extent and antiquity of their history, even when geological evidence like the Sarasvati River or archaeological evidence like the Harappan and Cambay sites are so clear. THE RECENT find of a submerged city in the Gulf of Cambay, perhaps as old as 7500 BC, serves to highlight the existence of southern sources for the civilisation of ancient India. The Gulf of Cambay find is only the latest in a series that includes Lothal (S.R. Rao), Dholavira (R.S. Bisht) and others in Gujarat. These discoveries have been pushing the seats of ancient Indian civilisation deeper into the southern peninsula. We should not be surprised if more such sites are discovered in South India, especially the coastal regions, for the south has always played a significant if neglected role in ancient India going back to Vedic times. I have argued for such a coastal origin for Vedic civilisation in my recent book Rig Veda and the History of India. This is largely because of the oceanic character of Vedic symbolism in which all the main Rig Vedic Gods as well as many of the Vedic rishis have close connections with samudra or the sea. In fact, the image of the ocean pervades the whole of the Rig Veda. Unfortunately many scholars who put forth opinions on ancient India seldom bother to study the Vedas in the original Sanskrit and few know the language well enough to do so. The result is that their interpretation of Vedic literature is often erroneous, trusting out of date and inaccurate interpretations from the Nineteenth century like the idea that the Vedic people never new the sea! Literary evidence The Rig Veda states that "All the hymns praise Indra who is as expansive as the sea" (RV I.11.1) Agni wears the ocean as his vesture (RV VIII 102.4-6). The Sun is called the ocean (RV V.47.3). Soma is called the first ocean (RV IX.86.29). Varuna specifically is a God of the sea (RV I.161.14). These are just a few examples of out of well over a hundred references to samudra in the Rig Veda alone, including references to oceans as two, four or many (RV VI.50.13). This is obviously the poetry of a people intimately associated with the sea and not of any nomads from land-locked Central Asia or Eurasia. Vedic seer families like the Bhrigus are descendants of Varuna, the God of the sea as the first Bhrigu is called Bhrigu Varuni — Bhrigu, the son of Varuna. The teachings of Varuna to Bhrigu are found in the Taittiriya Upanishad and Taittiriya tradition of the Yajur Veda, which has long been most popular in South India. The recent find at sea in the Gulf of Cambay is near Baroach or Bhrigu-kachchha, the famous ancient city of the very same Bhrigus. These oceanic connections extend to other important Vedic rishis as well. In the Rig Veda, Agastya, who became the main rishi of South India, has twenty-five hymns in the first book of the Rig Veda and is mentioned in the other books as well. He is the elder brother of Vasishta who himself has the largest number of hymns in the text (about a hundred), those of the seventh book. Both rishis are said to have been born in a pot or kumbha, which may be a vessel or ship (RV VII.33.10-13). Vasishta is specifically connected to Varuna who was said to travel on a ship in the sea (RV VII.88.4-5). Both Vasishta and Agastya are descendants of Mitra and Varuna, the God of the sea. Vishvamitra in the Rig Veda (IIII.53.16) mentions the sage Pulasti, who was regarded as the progenitor of Ravana and Kubera and whose city, Pulasti-Pura was located in ancient Sri Lanka. He is mentioned along with Jamadagni, another common Rig Vedic sage and the father of Parshurama, the sixth incarnation of Lord Vishnu, before Rama and Krishna, whose main sphere of activity was in the south of India. Manu himself, the Vedic primal sage and king, is a flood figure and the Angirasas, the other main seer family apart from the Bhrigus, join him in his ship according to Puranic mythology. Southern peoples like the Yadus and Turvashas were said to have been glorified by Indra (RV X.49.8) and are mentioned a number of times in the Rig Veda as great Vedic peoples. So we have ample ancient literary evidence for the Vedic seer and royal families as connected with the ocean and southern regions. The Cambay site is in the ancient delta of the now dry Sarasvati River, one branch of which flowed into the Gulf of Cambay, showing that this site was part of the greater Sarasvati region and culture, which was the main location for Harappan cities in the 3300-1900 BCE period. Such an ocean front was important for maritime trade for the inland regions to the north. In this regard, important Vedic kings like Sudas were said to receive tribute from the sea (RV I.47.6). When the Greeks under Alexander came to India in the Fourth century BCE, the Greek writer Megasthenes in his Indika, fragments of which are recorded in several Greek writings, mentioned that the Indians (Hindus) had a record of 153 kings going back over 6400 years (showing that the Hindus were conscious of the great antiquity of their culture even then). This would yield a date that now amounts to 6700 BCE, a date that might be reflected in the Gulf of Cambay site which has been tentatively dated to 7500 BCE. So the old Vedic-Puranic king lists may not be that far off after all! Material evidence A few scholars, like Witzel in the United States — in spite of such massive evidence as the Sarasvati River and its intimate connection to Vedic literature — still try to separate Vedic culture from India and attribute it to a largely illiterate and nomadic culture that migrated into India from the northwest of the country in the post-Harappan period (after 1500 BCE). Ignoring all other evidence that connects the Vedic and Harappan, they point out the importance of the horse in the Rig Veda and argue that not enough evidence of horses has been found in Harappan sites to prove a Vedic connection. They fall back upon this one shot argument to ignore any other evidence to the contrary. However, one should note that these invasionists or migrationists are even more deficient in horse evidence to prove their own theory. There is no trail of horse bones or horse encampments into ancient India from Afghanistan during the 1500-1000 BCE period that is required for their theory of Aryan intrusion. In fact, there is no solid evidence for such a movement of peoples at all in the form of camps, skeletal remains or anything else. Those who claim that Vedic culture must have originated outside India because of its lauding of the horse are even more lacking in horse evidence. The real problem is not `no horse at Harappa' but `no horse evidence, in fact no real evidence of any kind, to prove any Aryan migration/invasion'. It has been convincingly shown that what the Rig Veda with its seventeen-ribbed horse (RV I.162.18) describes is a native Indian breed and not any Central Asian or Eurasian horse that has eighteen ribs. The Rig Veda mentions many Indian animals like the water buffalo (Mahisha), which is said to be the main animal sacred to Soma (RV IX.96.6), which does occur commonly on Harappan seals. The humped Brahma bull (Vrisha, Vrishabha), another common Harappan depiction, is the main animal of Indra, the foremost of the Vedic Gods. Elephants are also mentioned. Most of the animals depicted on Harappan seals are mythical, not zoological specimens anyway. Most common is a one-horned animal that is reflected in the one-horned boar or Varaha of the Mahabharata and the boar incarnation of Lord Vishnu. Many other Harappan depictions are of animals with multiple heads or half-animal/half-human figures. This is similar to the depictions in Vedic imagery which largely consist of mythical animals of this type. For example, Harappan seals portray a three-headed bull-like animal. Such an animal is described in the Rig Veda (III.56.6). A smokescreen The horse issue is meant as a smokescreen to avoid facing the facts of the Sarasvati River and the many new archaeological sites in India. These show no such break in the continuity of civilisation in the region as an Aryan invasion/migration requires, including the existence of fire altars and fire worship from the early Harappan period. Vedic and Puranic literature itself records the shift of the centre of culture from the Sarasvati to the Ganga at the end of the Vedic period, referring to the drying up of the river. Scholars like Witzel would have the Vedic people coming into India after the Sarasvati was already gone and yet making the river their ancestral homeland and most sacred region! Vedic literature is the largest preserved from the ancient world, dwarfing in size anything left by other cultures like Egypt, Greece or Babylonia. The Harappan-Sarasvati urban civilisation of India was by far the largest of its time (3100-1900 BCE) in the ancient world spreading from Punjab to Kachchh. We can no longer separate this great literature and this great civilisation, particularly given that both were based on the Sarasvati River, whose authenticity as a historical river before 1900 BCE has been confirmed by numerous geological studies. This great Vedic literature requires a great urban culture to explain it, just as the great Harappan urban culture requires a literature to explain it. Both come from the same region and cannot be separated. Finally it is sad to note how intellectuals in India are quick to denigrate the extent and antiquity of their history, even when geological evidence like the Sarasvati River or archaeological evidence like the Harappan and Cambay sites are so clear. However one may interpret these, the truth that civilisation in India was quite ancient and profound cannot be ignored. I don't think there is any other nation on earth that would be so negative if such ancient glories were found in their lands. HL: You the hindi boy living in USA , if you arrive to understand the theory of Kumari Kandam you will understand why Tamil Civilisation is supposed to be the root of all Indians and Europeans civilisations... Indians have enough brain to analyze simple facts, why are you not able ?... If a scientist arrive to proof that the sea level in the past was 50-100 m under the actual level, maybe you (and the entire world) will understand our real past... Without that it's only a myth for some persons... HL you can trust what you want, it's your most legitimate right.. But the proofs are under your eyes...
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04-06-2006, 10:26 AM
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#11 |
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According to the Hindu, three early Tamil Brahmi "hero stone" inscriptions have recently been discovered in Theni district. It appears that the two newer inscriptions are from the 3rd century BC, with the third being older.
http://www.hindu.com/2006/04/05/stor...0518340600.htm As you probably know, the "standard" modern account of the origin of Brahmi is that the script was invented under Ashoka as an adaption of the imperial Aramaic script, expressly for the purpose of engraving Ashoka's edicts. There are a number of problems with this theory, and the discovery of such early examples of the script outside Ashoka's empire casts even more doubt on it, and strongly suggests that Brahmi which Ashoka adapted for Prakrit was already in use in India. Perhaps it's time to revisit Nacchinakkiniyar's theory that the script was entirely derived from geometric patterns?
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04-06-2006, 10:52 AM
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#12 |
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Wow Aravindhan. Thanks for the link.
 Perhaps it's time to revisit Nacchinakkiniyar's theory that the script was entirely derived from geometric patterns? |
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04-06-2006, 06:21 PM
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#13 |
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Aravindhan,
I too could not find any thing on Nacchinakkiniyar by google. It will be nice if you can tell us about his theory sometime. An article by Stephan Baums and Andrew Glass (Proposal for encoding Brahmi...) has the following passage: "Puzzlingly, the main reason for abandoning inherent [a], namely the ability to write word-final consonants or non-homorganic consonant clusters conveniently, does not apply in the case of the Bhattiprolu inscriptions since Middle Indo-Aryan has neither of these phonetic features. This makes it likely that the dedicated long ÅmÇtrÇ, too, was first introduced in a Tamil context, and that the resulting system was only later imitated in Bhattiprolu. No such Tamil inscription has however been discovered yet." I refer to the last sentence. Does the discovery you mentioned provide this missing link? Thanks. Swarup |
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04-07-2006, 02:11 AM
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#14 |
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Aravindhan, There are certainly some resemblances in Brahmi between characters having similar sounds (the two "l"s and the two "n"s, for example), and if one takes variants into account, the core characters are quite geometrical, so one sees why he proposed this theory. If imperial Aramaic was not the source for Brahmi, it may well be worth examining the structure of each letter in the script to see if they support his theory. This makes it likely that the dedicated long matra, too, was first introduced in a Tamil context, and that the resulting system was only later imitated in Bhattiprolu. No such Tamil inscription has however been discovered yet." To give some background for the others, the main difference between Tamil Brahmi and Asokan Brahmi is that whereas in Asokan Brahmi a consonant sign has an inherent "a" sound, in Tamil Brahmi it does not, and a matra must be added to produce an "a". If you look at the last two symbols in the photograph in the Hindu's article, you'll see they're read as "ka" and "l". The little bar on top of the cross adds the "a" to the "k". The "l", lacking the bar, is a pure consonant. In Asokan Brahmi, these symbols would have represented "kaala" rather than "kal". The Bhattiprolu inscriptions, which are in Prakrit, use this system, and add a second feature. In Tamil Brahmi, "kaa" was written by drawing a cross (representing "k"), adding an overbar (adding a short "a"), and then writing the symbol for the independent vowel "a" next to it. The Bhattiprolu inscriptions, in contrast, have a dedicated matra to denote the long vowel "aa", which is basically the overbar for short "a" with a little vertical hook at the end. This system was thought to have been borrowed from Tamil Brahmi, but no actual Tamil inscriptions that used this system were known, until the discovery of the Arittapatti inscriptions a couple of years ago. |
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04-07-2006, 12:43 PM
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#15 |
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aravindhan,
Many thanks for taking the trouble to reply. I did find a reference to the theory of script based on geometric shapes (without a reference to the commentator) in http://www.cmi.ac.in/gift/Epigraphy/...amilorigin.htm I am not really in to these things but it is good to see how history changes with new discoveries. Part of my curiosity stems from the fact that I used to live in a village Gudavalli near Bhattiprolu and used to pass by the stupa site whenever I visited my maternal grandparents. My sister-in-law tells me that once she found a stone in one of the roadside sewage pits in Gudavalli. When she got it removed and cleaned it up, it has some writing about the origins of the village. Amaravati is also nearby and many slabs there were used by farmers for making lime. It is good see that there are still some relics left which throw some light on our heritage. Swarup |
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04-07-2006, 11:16 PM
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#16 |
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Thank you Aravindhan, for the explanation.
To give some background for the others, the main difference between Tamil Brahmi and Asokan Brahmi is that whereas in Asokan Brahmi a consonant sign has an inherent "a" sound, in Tamil Brahmi it does not, and a matra must be added to produce an "a". If you look at the last two symbols in the photograph in the Hindu's article, you'll see they're read as "ka" and "l". The little bar on top of the cross adds the "a" to the "k". The "l", lacking the bar, is a pure consonant. In Asokan Brahmi, these symbols would have represented "kaala" rather than "kal". An intriguing feature of the report in "The Hindu" is the inscription on the third stone that says the dead man belonged to 'Velur'. I am not sure about 'Kudallur' and 'Pedu' mentioned in the report, but is it the same 'Velur' we have now? Does it mean the name 'Velur' as we know now has remained unchanged over the past 2300 years? |
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04-23-2006, 08:00 AM
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#17 |
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Thanks aravindhan for posting the link. I was trying to get the link for a different thread. There seems to be very slow progress on this. Also Indian government's archaic archaeological survey is so guarded that it doesn't invite foreign scholars and teams which have better expertise in tools like carbon dating and bone fragment analysis in this venture. Adichanallur find IMHO is a National Geographic special.
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05-04-2006, 04:18 PM
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#18 |
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http://www.thehindu.com/2006/05/01/s...0101992000.htm
http://www.thehindu.com/2006/05/01/s...0112670100.htm P.S.: If there is a relevant thread already dedicated to such stuff, would the moderators please move it there? Thanks |
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05-09-2006, 06:27 PM
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#19 |
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Friends,
It is an excellant link given, but Irawatham Mahadevan has made clear that reading of Those Pictograms from Right to Left as a Forgery and Sanskrit Traddtion is the Cotinuity of Indus Civilisation. The Find, was said in Garden and not in Depth along with other materials, could have been a preserving of a Family Collection,and after intial claims from Aadichanallur - no Carbon14 dated proofs came, let us wait. Devapriya. |
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05-10-2006, 02:58 AM
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#20 |
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Sanskrit Traddtion is the Cotinuity of Indus Civilisation. False claim!!
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