Thevarams - The Historical Perspective. - DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate

**radikal** · 10-25-2005, 08:00 AM

Before, we embark on the works of the Three saints, Sambandar, Sundarar and Appar.. just a few lines about their character and behaviour as seen in their verses.

Sambandar was a little boy! Sundarar, a youth in his twenties and Appar of ripe age. So you can see them behaving thier age in their Thevarams.

Sambandar's songs has more description of buildings, nature, flora and fuana etc.. Little boys get exited when they see monkeys atop trees and fishes in the floods. - madaiyil vaLai paaya matharaar..... and .. sila manthi alamanthu maramEri mugil paarkkum thiruvaiyaarE...

Sundarar's song - we can see some humour and mischief, typical of any youth in their twenties. --- vALankirupar thiruvArooriR vazhnthu pOtheerE...

Appar's songs are serious, filled with devotion, emphasis on values, militancy, courage etc. - What more from an old man. -- 'en kadan pani seithu kidapathe....' and 'naamaarkkum kudiallOm..."

**LottiFurmann** · 11-04-2005, 08:59 PM

My dear Hubbers,

Thevarams - they are all about prayers! And a lot of things seem to be achieved by "prayers" that by any other means. Social reform, togetherness, arts, charity, hope and dreams, - and many other 'good' things.

Thevarams are devotional songs written by Three - Appar, Sambandar and Sundaramuthy Nayanars. They run into volumes! Of the 12 Saivite Thirumurais (we can call them 'books'), Thevarams occupy the first seven!

Leaving the Devotional (praises) and Mythological parts that are mentioned in the Thevarams, it would be interesting to see how much of History we can extract from these songs - The description of people, rulers, villages, towns, temples, social conditions, agriculture, customs, commerce and perhaps science. We will see....

We may also take a few of their verses for a literary analysis, just to compare them with other Tamil works done before or after the Thevaram period. - The Language, versification etc.

The scope is just the Saivite Tamil Literature, though we can examine what references to Saivism that existed in Sangam Tamil Literature prior to it - before 200 CE.

But first, these questions have to be answered,
1. When did Appar, Gnanasambandar and Sundarar live?
2. What is the extent of their works - how many songs?
3. The religions of Tamils during their time?

Ok, shall we start....

**Raj_Copi_Jin** · 11-04-2005, 09:21 PM

I dont know how Jainism spread to TN. I think when the Kannada kings captured TN(Hoysalas or kalabrars),they spread jainism.They had shravana belagola as capital.it is important Jain religious place.
Also, lot of Tamil kings adopted Jainism as their religion.

**Raj_Copi_Jin** · 11-05-2005, 01:22 AM

The first, second and third ThirumuRaikaL were composed by Thiru GnAna Sampan^thar (திருஞானசம்பந்தர்). Born in SIrkAzhi (சீர்காழி) in the seventh century A.D. he is said to have been nursed by umAdhEvi (உமாதேவி), the sakthi (சக்தி) counterpart of Sivan. In a short life span of 16 years he was one of the architects of the Bhakthi movement. In addition to his delightful songs, he defeated the Jain monks in debate and succeeded in bringing the hunch backed PAndya King back into the Hindu fold. He has composed 1600 pathikams (பதிகங்கள்), out of which only 384 are now available.

The fourth, fifth and sixth ThirumuRaikaL were authored by Thirun^Avuk karasar (திருநாவுக்கரசர்).He is also known as appar (அப்பர்) , the other architect of the Bhakthi movement. He was born in ThiruvAmUr (திருவாமூர்) and was a contemporary of Thiru GnAna Sampan^thar. He joined the Jain movement for a while and after an attack of a severe abdominal ailment, he came back into the Hindu fold and spent his long span of 80 years in social service. Out of the 4800 pathikams (group of 10 stanzas) he wrote, only 312 are available.

Sun^tharar (சுந்தரர்), the author of the seventh ThirumuRai was born in ThirumunaipAdi (திருமுனைப்பாடி) . In addition to his devotion to Lord Sivan he was instrumental in organizing the followers into a cohesive group. Only 100 pathikams of Sun^tharar are available The first 7 ThirumuRaikaL are collectively known as ThEvAram (தேவாரம்), garland of gods.

**LottiFurmann** · 11-05-2005, 01:55 AM

But first, these questions have to be answered,
1. When did Appar, Gnanasambandar and Sundarar live?
2. What is the extent of their works - how many songs?
3. The religions of Tamils during their time?

Ok, shall we start....

Dear Idiappam,

Ithartku thaana 'Mahweshwar bhaktha's -63 nayanmarkal -nu oru thread aarampichuvaichen, apuram, y open a new thread?

**Slonopotam845** · 11-05-2005, 03:20 AM

Dear Idiappam,

Ithartku thaana 'Mahweshwar bhaktha's -63 nayanmarkal -nu oru thread aarampichuvaichen, apuram, y open a new thread?

That thread is to talk about the biographies of the 63 Nayanmarkal and perhaps some of thier works - if any.

Here we are going to takle Thevarams only - with relavant quotes from the Thevarams themselves. For example - when it comes to 'importance of education' we can see that Appar was the foremost in stressing that --

"kallAthAr manath thaNukak kadavuL..." 6.84.8.

Other verses from the thevarams may be quoted.

On women of the Thevaram times:
They were educated, lived with familes, went around with their husbands etc... says Sambandar
kazhal malku panthodammaanai moondrin..
..... kaRRavar siRRidai kanni maargal. 1.4.2

So, I hope to see more such lines from the Thevarams, telling us more about 'the times' - the Historical Perspective.

**S.T.D.** · 11-05-2005, 03:30 AM

Thanks Viggop, for briefly, but clearly telling us about the the Three Saints and giving us a count on the number of Thevaram Songs that are available to us.

On the Rise of Janism and Buddism in the South, I think, that is probably due to missionaries sent by Ashoka King and ChandraGupta Maurya -- I am not sure - that was about 200 - 300 BC I guess.

But, we can see some evidences of the Fall of Jainism and Buddhism in the Thevarams - Appar and Sambandar, with their allies - The Alwars comtemporaries, were instrumental in the decline of Jain and Buddist religions in the south.

**LottiFurmann** · 11-05-2005, 03:40 AM

when it comes to 'importance of education' we can see that Appar was the foremost in stressing that --

"kallAthAr manath thaNukak kadavuL..." 6.84.8.

The importance of education is a very old theme in Tamil puRam literature. There is a song of AriyapaTai kaTanta neTunceziyan in the puRanAnURu in praise of learning:

உற்றுழி உதவியும் உறுபொருள் கொடுத்தும்
பிற்றைநிலை முனியாது கற்றல் நன்றே
பிறப்பு ஓர் அன்ன உடன்வயிற்று உள்ளும்
சிறப்பின் பாலால் தாயும் மனம் திரியும்
ஒருகுடிப் பிறந்த பல்லோ ருள்ளும்
மூத்தோன் வருக என்னாது அவருள்
அறிவுடை யோன் ஆறு அரசும் செல்லும்
வேற்றுமை தெரிந்த நாற்பால் உள்ளும்
கீழ்ப்பால் ஒருவன் கற்பின்
மேற்பால் ஒருவனும் அவன்கண் படுமே
(Obviously, kaRpu in this context means "learning")

I have heard it said by Tamil scholars that the tEvArams adopt themes and imagery from the puRam tradition, not to praise heroism and generosity, but to foster specific moral and religious ideas - could this be an example of that? Kampan (and, less obviously, the AzvArs) do something similar with akam imagery, as some of the verses posted in the Ramayana thread have shown. It would be wonderful if anyone can explain the tEvArams' use of puRam imagery in more detail, it's not something I know very much about, and I would like to learn more.

**HedgeYourBets** · 11-05-2005, 02:29 PM

"...Leaving the Devotional (praises) and Mythological parts that are mentioned in the Thevarams, it would be interesting to see how much of History we can extract from these songs - The description of people, rulers, villages, towns, temples, social conditions, agriculture, customs, commerce and perhaps science. We will see.... "

Dear Iddiappam,

What you have said above is absolute truth. In addition to the above we could further extract informations on ancient Tamil Ragas, Musical Instruments, Saiva Philosophy, Saiva Religious Practices, Temple Worship, Religious Festivals, and many more.

I encourage all research workers in Tamil Culture & History, and on Hinduism to study through these Thevarams, for that matter also through all the Thirumurais to unearth very useful informations belonging to this period.

Virarajendra

**LottiFurmann** · 11-05-2005, 05:05 PM

Virarajendra
Idiappam Sir has explained a lot of things about music found in thevarams in "Thamizh Isai" thread in Music section.

**radikal** · 11-09-2005, 07:05 AM

கீழ்ப்பால் ஒருவன் கற்பின்
மேற்பால் ஒருவனும் அவன்கண் படுமே
(Obviously, kaRpu in this context means "learning").

Nice lines...

It would be wonderful if anyone can explain the tEvArams' use of puRam imagery in more detail, it's not something I know very much about, and I would like to learn more I don't really understand, what is 'puram imagery'. Some light please.

**Slonopotam845** · 11-09-2005, 07:19 AM

What you have said above is absolute truth. In addition to the above we could further extract informations on ancient Tamil Ragas, Musical Instruments, Saiva Philosophy, Saiva Religious Practices, Temple Worship, Religious Festivals, and many more. Dear virarajendra... We will hopefully explore these as well. Your contributions would be very helpful..

**Slonopotam845** · 11-09-2005, 11:58 AM

Idiappam: That was a nice insight into the characters of the three saints.

I know this might appear sad, but unfortunately, I am not able to understand the high flown tamizh that the thevarams have been written in. Could you please, while quoting, also add a little translation? This would help people like me appreciate your message.

**Raj_Copi_Jin** · 11-09-2005, 12:18 PM

Idiappam,
I didn't bring all seven thirumurais with me to US. I have mudhal thirumurai ( by sambandhar). I started browsing to see whether it will shed any light about life at that time. It clearly indicates that names of places were translated into Sanskrit and back ( in some cases). Mayiladuthurai is one example. When I lived in that town it was called Mayavaram. I think it was changed to Mayuram after the 60s (not sure). Now it is Mayiladuthurai. There are eleven verses and in all of them it is Mayiladuthurai. But, Thiruvidaimarudhur seems to have remained the same. In all eleven verses it is ' idai marudhu'. It is also known as madhyaarjunam in Sanskrit. I will post more as I browse more.

**brraverishhh** · 11-09-2005, 12:38 PM

... Could you please, while quoting, also add a little translation? This would help people like me appreciate your message.

Same here, Idiappam!

**radikal** · 11-09-2005, 01:38 PM

ar and Badri,
Wil it help if we posted some verses and translations?

**Peptobismol** · 11-09-2005, 05:08 PM

I forced Idiappam Sir to give translations in the Thamizh Isai thread.

we are not much knowledgeable in reading sangam level tamil.so, please post translations too.

**Fegasderty** · 11-09-2005, 05:24 PM

ar and Badri,
Wil it help if we posted some verses and translations?

Yes, RR.
It would!

**HedgeYourBets** · 11-09-2005, 06:03 PM

a.r : I will try. I do not have all of the thevaram volumes (thirumurai) with me. But, I will start with what I was taught in elementary school. We used to sing some of these verses during prayer in the morning.

**Peptobismol** · 11-09-2005, 07:28 PM

RR, your efforts are very much appreciated.

Thank you.

Do take your time.

10-25-2005, 08:00 AM	#1
radikal Join Date Oct 2005 Age 54 Posts 4,523 Senior Member	Before, we embark on the works of the Three saints, Sambandar, Sundarar and Appar.. just a few lines about their character and behaviour as seen in their verses. Sambandar was a little boy! Sundarar, a youth in his twenties and Appar of ripe age. So you can see them behaving thier age in their Thevarams. Sambandar's songs has more description of buildings, nature, flora and fuana etc.. Little boys get exited when they see monkeys atop trees and fishes in the floods. - madaiyil vaLai paaya matharaar..... and .. sila manthi alamanthu maramEri mugil paarkkum thiruvaiyaarE... Sundarar's song - we can see some humour and mischief, typical of any youth in their twenties. --- vALankirupar thiruvArooriR vazhnthu pOtheerE... Appar's songs are serious, filled with devotion, emphasis on values, militancy, courage etc. - What more from an old man. -- 'en kadan pani seithu kidapathe....' and 'naamaarkkum kudiallOm..." Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-04-2005, 08:59 PM	#2
LottiFurmann Join Date Jan 2008 Posts 4,494 Senior Member	Thevarams - The Historical Perspective. My dear Hubbers, Thevarams - they are all about prayers! And a lot of things seem to be achieved by "prayers" that by any other means. Social reform, togetherness, arts, charity, hope and dreams, - and many other 'good' things. Thevarams are devotional songs written by Three - Appar, Sambandar and Sundaramuthy Nayanars. They run into volumes! Of the 12 Saivite Thirumurais (we can call them 'books'), Thevarams occupy the first seven! Leaving the Devotional (praises) and Mythological parts that are mentioned in the Thevarams, it would be interesting to see how much of History we can extract from these songs - The description of people, rulers, villages, towns, temples, social conditions, agriculture, customs, commerce and perhaps science. We will see.... We may also take a few of their verses for a literary analysis, just to compare them with other Tamil works done before or after the Thevaram period. - The Language, versification etc. The scope is just the Saivite Tamil Literature, though we can examine what references to Saivism that existed in Sangam Tamil Literature prior to it - before 200 CE. But first, these questions have to be answered, 1. When did Appar, Gnanasambandar and Sundarar live? 2. What is the extent of their works - how many songs? 3. The religions of Tamils during their time? Ok, shall we start.... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-04-2005, 09:21 PM	#3
Raj_Copi_Jin Join Date Oct 2005 Age 48 Posts 4,533 Senior Member	I dont know how Jainism spread to TN. I think when the Kannada kings captured TN(Hoysalas or kalabrars),they spread jainism.They had shravana belagola as capital.it is important Jain religious place. Also, lot of Tamil kings adopted Jainism as their religion. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-05-2005, 01:22 AM	#4
Raj_Copi_Jin Join Date Oct 2005 Age 48 Posts 4,533 Senior Member	The first, second and third ThirumuRaikaL were composed by Thiru GnAna Sampan^thar (திருஞானசம்பந்தர்). Born in SIrkAzhi (சீர்காழி) in the seventh century A.D. he is said to have been nursed by umAdhEvi (உமாதேவி), the sakthi (சக்தி) counterpart of Sivan. In a short life span of 16 years he was one of the architects of the Bhakthi movement. In addition to his delightful songs, he defeated the Jain monks in debate and succeeded in bringing the hunch backed PAndya King back into the Hindu fold. He has composed 1600 pathikams (பதிகங்கள்), out of which only 384 are now available. The fourth, fifth and sixth ThirumuRaikaL were authored by Thirun^Avuk karasar (திருநாவுக்கரசர்).He is also known as appar (அப்பர்) , the other architect of the Bhakthi movement. He was born in ThiruvAmUr (திருவாமூர்) and was a contemporary of Thiru GnAna Sampan^thar. He joined the Jain movement for a while and after an attack of a severe abdominal ailment, he came back into the Hindu fold and spent his long span of 80 years in social service. Out of the 4800 pathikams (group of 10 stanzas) he wrote, only 312 are available. Sun^tharar (சுந்தரர்), the author of the seventh ThirumuRai was born in ThirumunaipAdi (திருமுனைப்பாடி) . In addition to his devotion to Lord Sivan he was instrumental in organizing the followers into a cohesive group. Only 100 pathikams of Sun^tharar are available The first 7 ThirumuRaikaL are collectively known as ThEvAram (தேவாரம்), garland of gods. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-05-2005, 01:55 AM	#5
LottiFurmann Join Date Jan 2008 Posts 4,494 Senior Member	But first, these questions have to be answered, 1. When did Appar, Gnanasambandar and Sundarar live? 2. What is the extent of their works - how many songs? 3. The religions of Tamils during their time? Ok, shall we start.... Dear Idiappam, Ithartku thaana 'Mahweshwar bhaktha's -63 nayanmarkal -nu oru thread aarampichuvaichen, apuram, y open a new thread? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-05-2005, 03:20 AM	#6
Slonopotam845 Join Date Jan 2006 Posts 5,251 Senior Member	Dear Idiappam, Ithartku thaana 'Mahweshwar bhaktha's -63 nayanmarkal -nu oru thread aarampichuvaichen, apuram, y open a new thread? That thread is to talk about the biographies of the 63 Nayanmarkal and perhaps some of thier works - if any. Here we are going to takle Thevarams only - with relavant quotes from the Thevarams themselves. For example - when it comes to 'importance of education' we can see that Appar was the foremost in stressing that -- "kallAthAr manath thaNukak kadavuL..." 6.84.8. Other verses from the thevarams may be quoted. On women of the Thevaram times: They were educated, lived with familes, went around with their husbands etc... says Sambandar kazhal malku panthodammaanai moondrin.. ..... kaRRavar siRRidai kanni maargal. 1.4.2 So, I hope to see more such lines from the Thevarams, telling us more about 'the times' - the Historical Perspective. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-05-2005, 03:30 AM	#7
S.T.D. Join Date May 2008 Age 42 Posts 5,220 Senior Member	Thanks Viggop, for briefly, but clearly telling us about the the Three Saints and giving us a count on the number of Thevaram Songs that are available to us. On the Rise of Janism and Buddism in the South, I think, that is probably due to missionaries sent by Ashoka King and ChandraGupta Maurya -- I am not sure - that was about 200 - 300 BC I guess. But, we can see some evidences of the Fall of Jainism and Buddhism in the Thevarams - Appar and Sambandar, with their allies - The Alwars comtemporaries, were instrumental in the decline of Jain and Buddist religions in the south. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-05-2005, 03:40 AM	#8
LottiFurmann Join Date Jan 2008 Posts 4,494 Senior Member	when it comes to 'importance of education' we can see that Appar was the foremost in stressing that -- "kallAthAr manath thaNukak kadavuL..." 6.84.8. The importance of education is a very old theme in Tamil puRam literature. There is a song of AriyapaTai kaTanta neTunceziyan in the puRanAnURu in praise of learning: உற்றுழி உதவியும் உறுபொருள் கொடுத்தும் பிற்றைநிலை முனியாது கற்றல் நன்றே பிறப்பு ஓர் அன்ன உடன்வயிற்று உள்ளும் சிறப்பின் பாலால் தாயும் மனம் திரியும் ஒருகுடிப் பிறந்த பல்லோ ருள்ளும் மூத்தோன் வருக என்னாது அவருள் அறிவுடை யோன் ஆறு அரசும் செல்லும் வேற்றுமை தெரிந்த நாற்பால் உள்ளும் கீழ்ப்பால் ஒருவன் கற்பின் மேற்பால் ஒருவனும் அவன்கண் படுமே (Obviously, kaRpu in this context means "learning") I have heard it said by Tamil scholars that the tEvArams adopt themes and imagery from the puRam tradition, not to praise heroism and generosity, but to foster specific moral and religious ideas - could this be an example of that? Kampan (and, less obviously, the AzvArs) do something similar with akam imagery, as some of the verses posted in the Ramayana thread have shown. It would be wonderful if anyone can explain the tEvArams' use of puRam imagery in more detail, it's not something I know very much about, and I would like to learn more. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-05-2005, 02:29 PM	#9
HedgeYourBets Join Date Aug 2008 Posts 4,655 Senior Member	"...Leaving the Devotional (praises) and Mythological parts that are mentioned in the Thevarams, it would be interesting to see how much of History we can extract from these songs - The description of people, rulers, villages, towns, temples, social conditions, agriculture, customs, commerce and perhaps science. We will see.... " Dear Iddiappam, What you have said above is absolute truth. In addition to the above we could further extract informations on ancient Tamil Ragas, Musical Instruments, Saiva Philosophy, Saiva Religious Practices, Temple Worship, Religious Festivals, and many more. I encourage all research workers in Tamil Culture & History, and on Hinduism to study through these Thevarams, for that matter also through all the Thirumurais to unearth very useful informations belonging to this period. Virarajendra Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-05-2005, 05:05 PM	#10
LottiFurmann Join Date Jan 2008 Posts 4,494 Senior Member	Virarajendra Idiappam Sir has explained a lot of things about music found in thevarams in "Thamizh Isai" thread in Music section. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-09-2005, 07:05 AM	#11
radikal Join Date Oct 2005 Age 54 Posts 4,523 Senior Member	கீழ்ப்பால் ஒருவன் கற்பின் மேற்பால் ஒருவனும் அவன்கண் படுமே (Obviously, kaRpu in this context means "learning"). Nice lines... It would be wonderful if anyone can explain the tEvArams' use of puRam imagery in more detail, it's not something I know very much about, and I would like to learn more I don't really understand, what is 'puram imagery'. Some light please. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-09-2005, 07:19 AM	#12
Slonopotam845 Join Date Jan 2006 Posts 5,251 Senior Member	What you have said above is absolute truth. In addition to the above we could further extract informations on ancient Tamil Ragas, Musical Instruments, Saiva Philosophy, Saiva Religious Practices, Temple Worship, Religious Festivals, and many more. Dear virarajendra... We will hopefully explore these as well. Your contributions would be very helpful.. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-09-2005, 11:58 AM	#13
Slonopotam845 Join Date Jan 2006 Posts 5,251 Senior Member	Idiappam: That was a nice insight into the characters of the three saints. I know this might appear sad, but unfortunately, I am not able to understand the high flown tamizh that the thevarams have been written in. Could you please, while quoting, also add a little translation? This would help people like me appreciate your message. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-09-2005, 12:18 PM	#14
Raj_Copi_Jin Join Date Oct 2005 Age 48 Posts 4,533 Senior Member	Idiappam, I didn't bring all seven thirumurais with me to US. I have mudhal thirumurai ( by sambandhar). I started browsing to see whether it will shed any light about life at that time. It clearly indicates that names of places were translated into Sanskrit and back ( in some cases). Mayiladuthurai is one example. When I lived in that town it was called Mayavaram. I think it was changed to Mayuram after the 60s (not sure). Now it is Mayiladuthurai. There are eleven verses and in all of them it is Mayiladuthurai. But, Thiruvidaimarudhur seems to have remained the same. In all eleven verses it is ' idai marudhu'. It is also known as madhyaarjunam in Sanskrit. I will post more as I browse more. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-09-2005, 12:38 PM	#15
brraverishhh Join Date Jan 2006 Posts 5,127 Senior Member	... Could you please, while quoting, also add a little translation? This would help people like me appreciate your message. Same here, Idiappam! Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

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11-09-2005, 01:38 PM	#16
radikal Join Date Oct 2005 Age 54 Posts 4,523 Senior Member	ar and Badri, Wil it help if we posted some verses and translations? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-09-2005, 05:08 PM	#17
Peptobismol Join Date Oct 2005 Age 58 Posts 4,386 Senior Member	I forced Idiappam Sir to give translations in the Thamizh Isai thread. we are not much knowledgeable in reading sangam level tamil.so, please post translations too. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-09-2005, 05:24 PM	#18
Fegasderty Join Date Mar 2008 Posts 5,023 Senior Member	ar and Badri, Wil it help if we posted some verses and translations? Yes, RR. It would! Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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11-09-2005, 06:03 PM	#19
HedgeYourBets Join Date Aug 2008 Posts 4,655 Senior Member	a.r : I will try. I do not have all of the thevaram volumes (thirumurai) with me. But, I will start with what I was taught in elementary school. We used to sing some of these verses during prayer in the morning. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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11-09-2005, 07:28 PM	#20
Peptobismol Join Date Oct 2005 Age 58 Posts 4,386 Senior Member	RR, your efforts are very much appreciated. Thank you. Do take your time. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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