[Beerinkol]

A query was raised on when and how Jainism came to South India. While there are many theories, no one is really sure.

One theory is that the Kalabras was a Jaina sect that overan the Southern kingdoms. Another theory is the South Indian kingdoms were influenced more and more into Jainism in response to incessant wars.

My theory is that Kaveripumpattinam was destoryed by the sea "Kandal kondu ponathe" through a tsunami. At that time, other port towns must have also been destroyed. This is corroborated by a 4th century story of Puri Jaganath temple.

It is believed that a set of pirates were landing in Puri to pillage and loot the temple. However, the God had appeared in the dreams of the priests about this incident so they can hide the moola vigraham and valuables. When the pirates came, they saw a deserted temple with nothing to loot. Disappointed and disgusted they left and about to borard their ship when the sea approached and killed all of them. IMHO, this must be the same event.

This tsunami is also supposed to have killed the royals at Keveripumpattinam leaving behind an economical and politcal vaccum. This probably encouraged others to assume power.

What is however preplexing is the lack of evidence, data, literature, etc. for the 4th and 5th centuries. It is only when the Pallavas started establishing their dominance that we see some information from the 6th Century onwards. The origin of the Pallavas themselves is in doubt. While some talk about the Pallavas having originated from the sea, there are also ridiculous theories of Pallavas being part of the Pahlavas from Persia (see http://www.iranian.com/Letters/2005/August/aug30a.html).

From Siru Thondar's Thiruvillayadal (which is a collection of well known stories of Shiva), we know about Jains being north of Madurai and also a "Chola" from Kanchi called "Ayiram Pari Konda Cholan" (the Chola with thousand horses apparently a reference to his cavalry unit). This may well prove the origins of the Pallavas as Cholas who must have been a faction who had escaped the tsunami. Cant say why they called themselves Pallavas though.

Furthermore, Jains are naturally non-violent or non-destructive by philosophy and religion. So it is somewhat hard to associate them with the destruction of traditions, culture, history, and "Hinduism" as we know it today as is attributed to the Kalabras.

However, from Periya Puranam (which is essentially a rework of Sundarar's Thiruthonda Thogai by Sekkizhar), we know that even Jainas (or anyone for that matter), are not above violence.

It is believed that the Jain priests had converted Kuun Pandyan (because he had a physical deformity) into that religion and encouraged him to persecute Saivites. They encouraged a policy of "Kundu muttu" kettu muttu." This means that if someone saw a Saivitie he would have committed grave sin. If he reveals that he had seen a Saivite to another the one who hears this would have committed grave sin. The story goes that when Sambandar reaches Madurai, his place of stay was torched and that fire was sent by Sambandar to the king gently-- "payave selga Pandiyarku aaga." Then, Sambandar and the Jains attempt to cure the king. When the Jains fail, Sambandar cures the king's sickness Thiruneeru (Vibhuthi) after singing his Thiruneetru padiya "Mandiramavathu Neeru." Later the Jains challenge Sambandar to a debate where they would throw their poetry into fire ("Annal Vaadam") and water ("Punal Vaadam"). It is decided that those who lose will be impaled. The Jains lose and they are impaled. Sculptures of the Jain impaling is there in Madurai and paintings to that effect from Chola to Maratha times is seen in many temples in Tamil Naadu including Bhrihadeeshwara.

Another story about the the "cruelty of Jains" is the story of Appar. He was born Saivaite as Marulneeki, converts to Jainism after seeing the death of his would-be brother-in-law, in defference to this death the assumption of widowhood of his sister, the death of his parents all in quick sucession. He soon becomes the most-respected and seniormost Jain saint of South India with the name of Dharmaseelar.

However, the story goes that he developed a violent stomach ache and could not find out why he got this pain. He argues in his Thevaram "Kurainavaru Pugagaili, Kodumai pala saithana naan ariyaen." This means that he is convinced that he committed some bad karma in his bad life as he does not know of bad karma that may have committed in this life. This is contrary to the belief of Jains that people experience results of their karmas in the same life. Therefore, losing faith in Jainism, he becomes a Shiva devotee again.

Mahendra Pallava who was himself a Jain at that time is instigated by Jain saints to punish Dharmaseelar who is now called Thirunavukku Arasar (because he is the lord of his tongue as he sings such beautiful poetry). Mahendra Pallava punishes him and attempts to kill him by throwing him in the sea, burning him in a Sunambhu Arrai, etc. Thirunavukku Arasar comes out singing everytime. The king is intrigued and asks him how he survives these tortures. At that point the saint says that he is always thinking about his Lord's feet which to him is like the sound of a beautiful music from the Veena, the coolnes of the Southern breeze, the smell of fragrant flowers, etc. The king converts to Saivism.

Please remember that I am not "dissing" Jainism just quoting from texts as is.

[Lillie_Steins]

Nice lines...

Yes, the entire song is one of my favourites.

I don't really understand, what is 'puram imagery'. Some light please.

My wording certainly wasn't clear! What I meant was that the songs of Kampan, and to a lesser extent, the Azhvars, make heavy use of the types of metaphors and other associations, particularly in relation to landscapes, that one finds in the akam poetry of the cankam period, but of course with a religious twist. For example, Kampan uses the image of a deer caught in a barren landscape with "parunthu"s circling overhead in describing Sitai's reaction to Iraman's accusations. One similarly often encounters of rice fields, the sandy seashore, hilly tracts, etc. This has been much analysed by scholars - the essence is that the language of feelings developed by sangam poetry for secular love is appropriated to refer to religious devotion.

I've heard some scholars say that in a similar way, the Tevarams use the poetic techniques and metaphors which puram poetry developed for describing its themes - heroism, generosity, virtue, glory, stoicism, etc. -, but to convey aspects of saiva philosophy. Thus if the puram songs praise a particular mode of conduct for secular reasons, the Tevarams, according to these scholars, praise the very same mode of conduct, using poetic devices which are quite similar(if one keeps in mind the time separating them) but giving it a religious colour. I would like to find out more about this, and that basically was my question. I hope I've explained it better now.

[tgs]

For example Appar has captured the traditions of Thiruvarur in his Thevaram

"Ambalathu Mannikoothai Aaduvan Puguvadarkku Munno Pinno." See my article "Timeless Thiruvarur" at
http://www.whatisindia.com/monuments...hiruvarur.html.

He has also talked about the music and prevalence of art in Thiruvaiyaru in a different Thevaram.

That was a good start on the study of the towns mentioned in the Thevarams - Thiruvarur ->Arur!

Your quote "Ambalathu.." was interesting. Appar, in the following song says, Arur is the oldest city - origin "untraceable". The are more about that city - but the rhyme is good in this one!

Ò¨¸¦ÂðÎõ §À¡ì¦¸ðÎõ ÒÄý¸ ¦ÇðÎõ
...â¾Äí¸Ç¨Å ¦ÂðÎõ ¦À¡Æ¢ø¸ ¦ÇðÎõ
¸¨Ä¦ÂðÎí ¸¡ô¦ÀðÎí ¸¡ðº¢ ¦ÂðÎí
...¸Æü§ºÅÊ Â¨¼ó¾¡÷ ¸¨Ç¸ ¦½ðÎõ
¿¨¸¦ÂðÎõ ¿¡¦ÇðÎõ ¿ý¨Á ¦ÂðÎõ
...¿ÄﺢÈó¾¡÷ ÁÉò¾¸òÐ ÁÄ÷¸ ¦ÇðÎõ
¾¢¨¸¦ÂðÎó ¦¾Ã¢ôÀ¾üÌ Óý§É¡ À¢ý§É¡
...¾¢ÕÅ¡å÷ §¸¡Â¢Ä¡ì ¦¸¡ñ¼ ¿¡§Ç.
--Appar 6.34.9

From 'pugai, 'pOkku' ....... to 'malar' all grouped in eights(???). Before all these came into existence (or became known) all over (8 thisai), The Lord was already there - in Thiruvaarur!

What are the eights?

[S.T.D.]

one question

Was the panchakshari mantram "Na ma Si va ya" introduced by gnanasampandhar or was this mantra existing before that?

[9mm_fan]

one question

Was the panchakshari mantram "Na ma Si va ya" introduced by gnanasampandhar or was this mantra existing before that?

No! Manickavasagar's Thiruvasagam starts "namasivaya vazhga.."

There are many occurances of these letters - the 'ainthezhuththu mantiram' in Thirumoolar's Thirumanthiram, especially in the Fourth and the Nineth Thanthirams...... eg:

¦¾ûÇÓÐ °Èî º¢Å¡Â¿Á ±ýÚ
¯ûÇÓÐ °È ´Õ¸¡ø ¯¨Ãò¾¢Îõ
¦ÅûÇÓÐ °Èø Å¢ÕõÀ¢¯ñ ½¡¾Å÷
ÐûǢ ¿£÷§À¡ø ÍÆø¸¢ýÈ Å¡§È.
---Thirumantiram 2704

Üò§¾ º¢Å¡Â ¿ÁÁº¢ š¢Îõ
Üò§¾ ®°¬²µõ º¢Å¡Â ¿Á š¢Îõ
Üò§¾ ®°¬²µõ º¢Å¿Á š¢Îõ
Üò§¾ *°¬²µõ ¿Áº¢Å¡Â §¸¡¦Ç¡ýÚ Á¡§È.
--Thirumantiram 912

Thirumoolar and Manicakavasagar lived before Sambandar!

[radikal]

idiappam:

The book on thiruvasakam by thiruvaavaduthurai aadheenam says that the five letters Na Ma Si Vaa Ya were given to him by his guru in Perunthurai (Avudaiyaarkovil).

[Lt_Apple]

Thanks Idiappam Sir
As me & lot other hubbders requested, please give us translations of your thevaram posts in simple english.

1 more question. Why is sampandhar known as Aludai Pillai?

[brraverishhh]

As me & lot other hubbders requested, please give us translations of your thevaram posts in simple english.

The Eights according to Appar!

Ò¨¸¦ÂðÎõ §À¡ì¦¸ðÎõ ÒÄý¸ ¦ÇðÎõ
...â¾Äí¸Ç¨Å ¦ÂðÎõ ¦À¡Æ¢ø¸ ¦ÇðÎõ
¸¨Ä¦ÂðÎí ¸¡ô¦ÀðÎí ¸¡ðº¢ ¦ÂðÎí
...¸Æü§ºÅÊ Â¨¼ó¾¡÷ ¸¨Ç¸ ¦½ðÎõ
¿¨¸¦ÂðÎõ ¿¡¦ÇðÎõ ¿ý¨Á ¦ÂðÎõ
...¿ÄﺢÈó¾¡÷ ÁÉò¾¸òÐ ÁÄ÷¸ ¦ÇðÎõ
¾¢¨¸¦ÂðÎó ¦¾Ã¢ôÀ¾üÌ Óý§É¡ À¢ý§É¡
...¾¢ÕÅ¡å÷ §¸¡Â¢Ä¡ì ¦¸¡ñ¼ ¿¡§Ç.
--Appar 6.34.9

1. Ò¨¸¦ÂðÎõ pugai ettum = eight kinds of body the soul would reside
pugai = dwellings --- pugu(verb) > puguthal (to enter) > pugai(noun)
Thevar, Manithar, mirugam, naragar, etc.

2. §À¡ì¦¸ðÎõ pOkku ettum = the eight flaults (evils)
pOkku = kuRRam eight - they are:
ignorance, insincerity, arrogance, selfishness, greed, hatred, etc

3. ÒÄý¸ ¦ÇðÎõ pulangal ettum = the eight 'senses' ??

4. â¾Äí¸Ç¨Å ¦ÂðÎõ - pUthalangalavai ettum = the eight worlds

5. ¦À¡Æ¢ø¸ ¦ÇðÎõ - pozhilgal ettum = the eight gardens or isles??
nAval pozhil, iRali pozhil, thengu pozhil, kamugu pozhil etc

6. ¸¨Ä¦ÂðÎí - kalai ettum = the eight seas
kalai > kadal = sea

7. ¸¡ô¦ÀðÎí - kAppu ettum = the eight forts = hills

.........¸¡ðº¢ ¦ÂðÎí - kAtchi ettum (reach) = that 'reaches' our view (sight)

.........¸Æü§ºÅÊ Â¨¼ó¾¡÷ - kazhaR sEvadi adainthAr = those who reach (the Lord's) feet

8. ¸¨Ç¸ ¦½ðÎõ - kaLaikaN ettum = the eight type of rewards (spirutual)

9. ¿¨¸¦ÂðÎõ - nagai ettum = the eight stars (constellations)
nagai = glitters, light, (not jewel here)

10. ¿¡¦ÇðÎõ - nAL ettum = the eight measures of time, they are:
hours(nAzhi), day, week, phase, month, season, half-year (ayanam), year.

11. ¿ý¨Á ¦ÂðÎõ - nanmai ettum = the eight virtues - they are:
aRam, poruL, inbam, vIdu, and four ranks of nearness to the Lord (Siva pathavi)

....... ¿ÄﺢÈó¾¡÷ - nalanchiRanthAr = of the good men

12. ÁÉò¾¸òÐ ÁÄ÷¸ ¦ÇðÎõ - manaththakaththu malargal ettum = blooms of the heart, they are:
non-violence, kindness, self-control, patience, devotion, truth, love and wisdom.

13. ¾¢¨¸¦ÂðÎó - thigai ettum = the eight points (of the compass) - means 'all over'
thigai > thisai = directions

.......¦¾Ã¢ôÀ¾üÌ Óý§É¡ À¢ý§É¡ - therippathaRku munnO pinNo = before of after they became known

.........¾¢ÕÅ¡å÷ §¸¡Â¢Ä¡ì ¦¸¡ñ¼ ¿¡§Ç. - thiruvArUr kOyilAk koNda nALE. = was the day the Lord made Thiruvarur his abode.
Simply:
From 'pugai, 'pOkku' ....... to 'malar'. Before all these came into existence (or became known) all over (8 thisai), The Lord was already there - in Thiruvaarur!

[radikal]

Dear Idiappam Sir
Thanks a lot!

§À¡ì¦¸ðÎõ pOkku ettum = the eight flaults (evils)
pOkku = kuRRam eight - they are:
ignorance, insincerity, arrogance, selfishness, greed, hatred, etc

manaththakaththu malargal ettum = blooms of the heart, they are:
non-violence, kindness, self-control, patience, devotion, truth, love and wisdom.

I pray Lord Shiva takes away "pOkku ettum" from me and gives me
"manaththakaththu malargal ettum"

[brraverishhh]

one question

Was the panchakshari mantram "Na ma Si va ya" introduced by gnanasampandhar or was this mantra existing before that?

The mantra "Nama Sivaya" has roots in Sri Rudram which is part of the Yajur Veda.

[Big A]

[quote="Idiappam
What are the eights?[/quote]

If I remember right, I think this has roots in Sri Rudram which is part of the Yajur Veda. I read somewhere that it refers to the 8 major Leelaigal of Shiva quoted in Sri Rudram as:

Om Namaste Asthu Bhagavannu
Vishvershwaraya
(1) Mahadevaya (Manifested as The Lord who is the protector of the Devas)
(2) Thriyambakaya (Manifested as The Lord with Three Eyes)
(3) Thripuranthakaya (Manifested as Lord who destroyed the three cities)
(4) Thrikaagni Kalaya
Kalagni Rudraya (Manifests as The Lord who creates the Pralaya)
(5) Neelakantaya (Manifested as Lord who saved the cosmos from the poison when the Paarkadal was churned)
(6) Mrithunjayaya (Manifested as The Lord who defeated Death when he saved Markhandeya and the Hunter)
(7)Sarveshwaraya (Manifests as The Lord who saves the World)
(8) Sadashivaya (Manifested as The Lord who bring peace to the world)
Sriman Mahadevaya Namaha

Rgds, Aravind Sitaraman

[NeroASERCH]

Originally Posted by Idiappam What are the eights?

If I remember right, I think this has roots in Sri Rudram which is part of the Yajur Veda. I read somewhere that it refers to the 8 major Leelaigal of Shiva quoted in Sri Rudram as:

Rgds, Aravind Sitaraman Dear Sitaraman,

1. Siva worship has its roots in the Tamil Country - not in the Vedas. Vedas knew no 'Siva'!

2. Yajur veda is all about Homa sacrifice - the rituals, formalities the chanting etc - the Rudra of the Vedas is certainly not the Siva of the Tamils.

3. Sri Rudram is said to the 'part' of the Yajur Veda... - there are a few version of the Yajur Veda. The Sri Rudram is never in existence in any Vedas - Yajur or otherwise. Sri Rudram was written centuries after Vedas were written (Rig Vedas 600 BCE).. - Artharvan (200CE). The artharvan was written after Manu - as Manu only refers to 3 (THREE) vedas.

4. It has always been difficult to date Sanskritic Literature, as the Sanskritists kept their 'scriptures' secretly - as is was considered 'polluting' if the lower-castes read them. Most of the Sanskrit Literature has no author - so a legendry or mythical person is said to have composed them - giving the impression that they were written 'a long time ago'.. They could have been written fair recently.

5. Sri Rudram - by taking a glance at its language - seems to be far from the Vedas - probably written after Appar.

Anyway, coming back to the point -- Appar was of the view that the Lord (Siva) was there. in Thiruvaarur' long before the 'Eights' were known.

In the earlier verse Appar says that the Lord (Siva) was already there in the Tamil Country - Thiruvaarur, long before the Vedas were unfolded.

§Å¾ò¨¾ ŢâôÀ¾üÌ Óý§É¡ À¢ý§É¡
Å¢ÆÅ¡å÷ §¸¡Â¢Ä¡ì ¦¸¡ñ¼ ¿¡§Ç.
--- Appar 6.34.8

=======Going back to Appar on Thiruvaathirai celebration at Thiruvarur.....

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

The Thiruvathirai Festival at Thiruvaroor...

Appar says that this festival was popular at Thiruvarur.. The celebration was grand. The streets and buildings were decorated with white flags. The 'Lord' of The Temple - Siva was taken around in a pallaku decorated with gems... and more -- in the following verses!

ÓòРŢ¾¡É Á½¢ô¦À¡ü ¸Åâ Өȡ§Ä
Àò¾÷¸ §Ç¡Î À¡¨ÅÂ÷ ÝÆô ÀÄ¢ôÀ¢ý§É
Å¢ò¾¸ì §¸¡Ä ¦Åñ¼¨Ä Á¡¨Ä Ţþ¢¸û
«ò¾ý ¬å÷ ¬¾¢¨Ã ¿¡Ç¡ø «ÐÅñ½õ. ........ 4.21.1

Å£¾¢¸û §¾¡Úõ ¦Åñ¦¸¡Ê §Â¡ÎÅ¢ ¾¡Éí¸û
§º¡¾¢¸û Å¢ðÎî ͼ÷Á¡ Á½¢¸û ´Ç¢§¾¡ýÈî
º¡¾¢¸ Ç¡Â ÀÅÇÓ ÓòÐò ¾¡Áí¸û
¬¾¢ ¬å÷ ¬¾¢¨Ã ¿¡Ç¡ø «ÐÅñ½õ. ...........4.21.3

[Drugmachine]

Originally Posted by asitaraman Originally Posted by Idiappam What are the eights?

If I remember right, I think this has roots in Sri Rudram which is part of the Yajur Veda. I read somewhere that it refers to the 8 major Leelaigal of Shiva quoted in Sri Rudram as:

Rgds, Aravind Sitaraman Dear Sitaraman,

1. Siva worship has its roots in the Tamil Country - not in the Vedas. Vedas knew no 'Siva'!

2. Yajur veda is all about Homa sacrifice - the rituals, formalities the chanting etc - the Rudra of the Vedas is certainly not the Siva of the Tamils.

3. Sri Rudram is said to the 'part' of the Yajur Veda... - there are a few version of the Yajur Veda. The Sri Rudram is never in existence in any Vedas - Yajur or otherwise. Sri Rudram was written centuries after Vedas were written (Rig Vedas 600 BCE).. - Artharvan (200CE). The artharvan was written after Manu - as Manu only refers to 3 (THREE) vedas.

4. It has always been difficult to date Sanskritic Literature, as the Sanskritists kept their 'scriptures' secretly - as is was considered 'polluting' if the lower-castes read them. Most of the Sanskrit Literature has no author - so a legendry or mythical person is said to have composed them - giving the impression that they were written 'a long time ago'.. They could have been written fair recently.

5. Sri Rudram - by taking a glance at its language - seems to be far from the Vedas - probably written after Appar.

Anyway, coming back to the point -- Appar was of the view that the Lord (Siva) was there. in Thiruvaarur' long before the 'Eights' were known.

In the earlier verse Appar says that the Lord (Siva) was already there in the Tamil Country - Thiruvaarur, long before the Vedas were unfolded.

§Å¾ò¨¾ ŢâôÀ¾üÌ Óý§É¡ À¢ý§É¡
Å¢ÆÅ¡å÷ §¸¡Â¢Ä¡ì ¦¸¡ñ¼ ¿¡§Ç.
--- Appar 6.34.8

=======Going back to Appar on Thiruvaathirai celebration at Thiruvarur..... According to many scholars, the Sri Rudram is part of Yajur Veda so is Purusha Shooktam (there is another version in the Rig Verda). There is a "Pancha Rudram" in the Rig Veda too but the one that is in use today as Sri Rudram is the one which is from Yajur Veda. Btw, it is often thought the Vedas somehow had a sequence in their appearance (like you have pointed out). This is also seems incorrect as Rig Veda seems to have references to Yajur and other Vedas (see the Rig version of Purusha Shooktam-- the 10th mandala and the 19th hymn); if that is so, how can the Rig appear before? It is surprising that you say that language is different from Yajur Veda-- this is absolutely not true. The word Siva itself is Sanskrit which could mean kindness, peace, benevolence, calm, beauty, etc. The date of Sri Rudram that you have quoted is also incorrect.

Before the fourteenth day war of the Mahabharatha, when Arjuna is about to go to war to avenge the death of Abhimanyu, Krishna takes him via a dream to Shivaloka to seek Pashupatha. Arjuna had already learnt the Pashupatha from Shiva during the Kidararjuna episode but has forgotten it. Shiva asks them to go to a location and fetch the arrow and return. When they reach the spot, the see innumerable number of barriers such as snakes and other awesome creatures. Krishna sings the Sri Rudram (saying that this is from the Yajur Veda) and pacifies all these creatures to move away. This cannot be done without doctoring many texts (Yajur Veda, Mahabharatha, etc). Since we were an oral tradition, every school memorizing these texts had to be updated; which is an impossibility.

"Yajus" is derived from "yaj" which means worship just as "yagna" which means sacrifical worship. Yajur Veda is meant to provide form to Rig Vedic hyms (rig means hymn in praise). There are many references from Yajur to Rig. There are two forms of Yajur-- Sukla (white) Yajur and Krishna (Black) Yajur.

Contrary to what you said about the lack of names for Sanskrit texts, here is some information. When Veda Vyasa classified the Vedas, there was only one form. He later taught Yajur Veda to his pupil Vaisampayana. Vaisampayan taught it to his pupil Yagnavalkya. When Vaisampayana and Yagnavalkya had a misunderstanding, Vaisamoayana asked his pupil to return what he learnt which was acqueised. Later, Yagnavalkya prayed to Surya (the Sun) who accepted him as a pupil and taught him Yajur Veda which came to be called Vaajasaneyi or Sukla Yajur Veda. Since this was called Sukla, the one taught by Vaisampayana came to be known as Krishna Yajur Veda. Also, Yajur Veda is not just about yagnas. The Brahadaranyaka and Thaitreya Upanishad have roots in Yajur Veda as is the philosophy of Advaitha.

I dont want to labor the point whether Shiva worship existed only in Tamil land and was not found or the question of "caste" or otherwise in the Vedas. Nor do I want to debate whether Tamil is superior to Sanskrit. I respect both languages and see them as inherent part of Indian history and culture. That discussion will clearly rathole us indefinitely. There are numerous references to Shiva in the Vedas and we can agree to disagree on that score.

Appar swamigal's question is when the temple at Arur originated. In fact he has clearly made it a question "munno pinno" and never took the view that it happened before as you suggest.

My reply is to what the "eights" were about and that is the reference to Sri Rudram which explains what the "eights" were. As far as I know, there is no other reference to what the "eights" were before Appar. Since, Appar referenced them, he knew what the "eights" were.

There are other interesting correlations too. Sri Rudram says:

Kagupaya Nishangunae Sthataenunam Pathayae namo nama
Nishangina Ishthimathae Thaskaranam Pathayae namo nama

which means "He is the Lord of even thieves who carry swords. He is the Lord of those who carry bows, arrows, and robbers." While this can seem odd, if we look at what Sambandar says "En Ullum Kavur Kalvun" he introduces a new concept of the God being a thief (of his heart), it would seem that what both are talking about is that Parameshwara is the the leader of even men with the hardest heart and is capable of changing them to his side (on the side of righteousness). Hence in "Avananri Yoranannv..." Thevaram, Sambandar says that Shiva appeals to them in the form that His followers take even if it means that he becomes a theif so His followers reach Him. He does not differentiate between His followers and accords them the same treatment -- of love, compassion, and help.

Appar says this beautifully in this Thevaram "Maipadintha Kannulanganung Kachhi" just as Sri Ruram says "Mahatya Kshallakaeyachae Vo Namo Nama". Essence of both is that The Lord does not distinguish between a lerned saint or an illeterate, one with money or without, one with beauty and one without-- He loves them both and is present in all. Thayumanavar asks "Yavur Siriyavar, yavur periyavar, yadu munaiyandri mundo?"

Rgds, Aravind Sitaraman

[HedgeYourBets]

According to many scholars, the Sri Rudram is part of Yajur Veda so is Purusha Shooktam (there is another version in the Rig Verda).

Why so much of confusion here?? Why must Sri Rudram be 'part' of Yajur Veda?? Is it not in the Yajur Veda - in all origin??? How many 'add-on's that came later become 'part' of these Vedas? And how long is this going to go on?

The word Siva itself is Sanskrit which could mean kindness, peace, benevolence, calm, beauty, etc. The Sanskrit word 'Siva' (Shiva) is used to mean 'auspicious' (adjective) all over the Vedas - It never meant 'A God, named Siva' in the Vedas. And the Vedic 'Rudra' is NOT the native 'Siva'.

The date of Sri Rudram that you have quoted is also incorrect. Well - I don't normally get very close on the first date! I let the other party make the first move - it works very well for me!


Contrary to what you said about the lack of names for Sanskrit texts, here is some information. When Veda Vyasa classified the Vedas, there was only one form. He later taught Yajur Veda to his pupil Vaisampayana. Vaisampayan taught it to his pupil Yagnavalkya. When Vaisampayana and Yagnavalkya had a misunderstanding, Vaisamoayana asked his pupil to return what he learnt which was acqueised. Later, Yagnavalkya prayed to Surya (the Sun) who accepted him as a pupil and taught him Yajur Veda which came to be called Vaajasaneyi or Sukla Yajur Veda. There you are! I was right when I said that the authors are legendry or mythological. The 'Sun' coming to earth to teach --- What would you call that- Histroy?

Since this was called Sukla, the one taught by Vaisampayana came to be known as Krishna Yajur Veda. Also, Yajur Veda is not just about yagnas. The Brahadaranyaka and Thaitreya Upanishad have roots in Yajur Veda as is the philosophy of Advaitha. How can they have 'roots in the Yajur Veda - when no one can show a direct link or some similarities- to the Yajur Veda! Can you show me some 'roots'.

There are numerous references to Shiva in the Vedas and we can agree to disagree on that score. You mean the four Vedas, Rig, Sama, Yajur and Atharvan. There is no 'Siva' - the God, in the Vedas. YOu you think He was there - show me some verses!

Appar swamigal's question is when the temple at Arur originated. In fact he has clearly made it a question "munno pinno" and never took the view that it happened before as you suggest. If is was later -- Appar would not have said - 'munno pinno'. Just 'pin' (later) would have be enough! He raised doubts, didn't he!

My reply is to what the "eights" were about and that is the reference to Sri Rudram which explains what the "eights" were. As far as I know, there is no other reference to what the "eights" were before Appar. Since, Appar referenced them, he knew what the "eights" were. Some 600-700 years before Appar the Tamils talk of 'eights' and Siva. Valluvar mentions that the Lord has 8 kuNams.....

§¸¡Ç¢ø ¦À¡È¢Â¢ü ̽Á¢Ä§Å ±ñ̽ò¾¡ý
¾¡¨Ç Å½í¸¡ò ¾¨Ä.
--kural 9
[/quote]

[Slonopotam845]

According to many scholars, the Sri Rudram is part of Yajur Veda so is Purusha Shooktam (there is another version in the Rig Verda).

Why so much of confusion here?? Why must Sri Rudram be 'part' of Yajur Veda?? Is it not in the Yajur Veda - in all origin??? How many 'add-on's that came later become 'part' of these Vedas? And how long is this going to go on?

I do not understand what you mean "Is it not in the Yajur Veda-in all origin???" You may be missing some connectors but I take it to mean "Is it not there from the beginning?" Yes it has and you are the one who is saying that it was introduced later.

The Vedas are not a bunch of words or one large word. It is made up of parts that deal with different issues. Sri Rudram is one such part and it is part of the Yajur Veda.

The way the Vedas was created, preserved, and propogated it would be impossible to add, edit, or delete them. I would like to pose a question to you. Do you understand how the Vedas are structured, how they were preserved, and how they were propogated? If you do, I would like you to outline them for the audience and also explain why and how you think that Sri Rudram was introduced into the Yajur Veda.

I sense that you are cynical about the Vedas-- you are entitled to your opinion but I do not want to belabor a point if you want to be close minded. I apologize in advance, if I have mis-understood your point.

I am willing to discuss various theories so we can both learn.

The word Siva itself is Sanskrit which could mean kindness, peace, benevolence, calm, beauty, etc.

The Sanskrit word 'Siva' (Shiva) is used to mean 'auspicious' (adjective) all over the Vedas - It never meant 'A God, named Siva' in the Vedas. And the Vedic 'Rudra' is NOT the native 'Siva'.

The word "Shiva" in Sanskrit also meant "auspicious not only that. I am not sure what you mean by "It never meant 'A God, named Siva'." Ours is a subtle civilization and is not in your face one. Add to this the centuries of morphing of language, the metaphors in use, and the lack of clarity in explanation and you will find that many of the information may not be understandable with our current blinders.

What the Vedas talk about is a Rudra who has all the attributes, achievements, names, features, love, stories, etc as the "Shiva" (as you say) of the South India. The question is whether they are the same or different. I am saying that they are the same (as do many scholars). Shrines of South India colloborate each and every story mentioned in the Vedas that are associated to Rudra/Shiva. Saints from South India including the "Thevaramuthaligal" have sung songs in these shrines corroborating these stories.

I see that you are saying the opposite in which case I would like to prove or convince me why that is so. Just to say that this has been borrowed is not enough. I would like some clear evidence please.

The date of Sri Rudram that you have quoted is also incorrect.

Well - I don't normally get very close on the first date! I let the other party make the first move - it works very well for me!

I am sorry, but I find this argument infantile and not scholarly. What do you mean "cloe to the first date?" The very fact that you ascribed a date to the Vedas and opined that the Sri Rudram happened several centuries after, you are pegging yourself down. You have already made the first move.

Please refer to my earlier question to you on how the Vedas were preserved and propogated. I will respond to this remark once you have answered that question.

Contrary to what you said about the lack of names for Sanskrit texts, here is some information. When Veda Vyasa classified the Vedas, there was only one form. He later taught Yajur Veda to his pupil Vaisampayana. Vaisampayan taught it to his pupil Yagnavalkya. When Vaisampayana and Yagnavalkya had a misunderstanding, Vaisamoayana asked his pupil to return what he learnt which was acqueised. Later, Yagnavalkya prayed to Surya (the Sun) who accepted him as a pupil and taught him Yajur Veda which came to be called Vaajasaneyi or Sukla Yajur Veda.

There you are! I was right when I said that the authors are legendry or mythological. The 'Sun' coming to earth to teach --- What would you call that- Histroy?

Has it every occured to you that:

a) the Sun could be a metaphor? Just because we call the Pandiyan King "Meenavan" does it mean that the Pandyan is a fish-man? I know most think serially (example of calling the Vanaras of South India in Ramayana "monkeys") I did not frankly expect that from you.

b) there could have been alien visits as proposed by many astro-physicists that could have imparted such knowledge?

c) there are numerous seers from different parts of the world, different cultures, different civilizations, different languages, have said similar things about life, God, rights & wrongs, and humanity. Is it possible that they all "heard" similar things? Is it not what the Vedas also said about how they Vedas were "heard?"

Therefore, instead of poo-pooing thoughts and ideas, I would like you to tell me in a non-cynical, scholarly fashion refute this information. Just because we believe something to be history today does not mean that it is accurate or inaccurate. For example, just a few year before we all thought that "Aryans" invaded from Europe. Now an overwhelming body of evidence suggest otherwise. As George Bernard Shaw said "the only thing we are certain about is what we do not know about our past or future."

Since this was called Sukla, the one taught by Vaisampayana came to be known as Krishna Yajur Veda. Also, Yajur Veda is not just about yagnas. The Brahadaranyaka and Thaitreya Upanishad have roots in Yajur Veda as is the philosophy of Advaitha.

How can they have 'roots in the Yajur Veda - when no one can show a direct link or some similarities- to the Yajur Veda! Can you show me some 'roots'.

I would actually argue that no one can show that they were inserted in the Yajur Veda. Before we argue this point out, I would like to answer my earlier question on how the Vedas were preserved and propogated. That has the key to this question.

There are numerous references to Shiva in the Vedas and we can agree to disagree on that score.

You mean the four Vedas, Rig, Sama, Yajur and Atharvan. There is no 'Siva' - the God, in the Vedas. YOu you think He was there - show me some verses!

OK, in the Sri Rudram, look up stanzas 1.2, 1.3, 1.5, 2.0. They describe the "Shiva" as we know Him in South India. How is there such as similarity between these two versions? A simple explanation of that they were inserted in the Vedas will not do. You will have to tell me how they were inserted, preserved, and propogated. For those who understand this, it will be clear that this is an impossibility.

Appar swamigal's question is when the temple at Arur originated. In fact he has clearly made it a question "munno pinno" and never took the view that it happened before as you suggest.

If is was later -- Appar would not have said - 'munno pinno'. Just 'pin' (later) would have be enough! He raised doubts, didn't he!

Oh I see, now you say that the Pinno was added later? The original versions said just "Pin?" If he wanted to say that in absolute terms why not just say "Munnae" instead of "Munno". Better still why did he have to add the "Pin" to it?

The original versions are lost as they were and the only version we have is what has been handed down orally. I will not buy this theory, unless you can prove your version.

My reply is to what the "eights" were about and that is the reference to Sri Rudram which explains what the "eights" were. As far as I know, there is no other reference to what the "eights" were before Appar. Since, Appar referenced them, he knew what the "eights" were.

Some 600-700 years before Appar the Tamils talk of 'eights' and Siva. Valluvar mentions that the Lord has 8 kuNams.....

§¸¡Ç¢ø ¦À¡È¢Â¢ü ̽Á¢Ä§Å ±ñ̽ò¾¡ý
¾¡¨Ç Å½í¸¡ò ¾¨Ä.
--kural 9

There you go quoting dates again and you said you dont. First of all, the date for the ancient Thirukkural has never been set. How do you know that they are not even older or more recent? Second, how do you know that the Thirukkural does not refer to the same "eights"? Valluvar Peruman talks about the "En Gunathan" but what are the eights? I have given you a theory about the eights. Why dont you propose another? Thirdly, how do you know that the eights that I mentioned were rigtht? All I said was that this was someone's theory of what the eights were.

Again, I do not want to rat-hole the discussion on the history of the Thevarams to a discussion on whether the Vedas came first or whether Shiva was mentioned in the Vedas. My reference was to forward a theory from someone that the eights mentioned were the eights from Sri Rudram and we have certainly crossed a lot of water here. If readers want to continue this discussion, I am willing to continue. Otherwise, I think this discussion should be on a diferent thread and not mess up this one.

Do others have an opinion?

Rgds, Aravind Sitaraman

[Beerinkol]

I would request that this thread be kept to "Thevaram- Historical perspective". Please do not digress from this topic.Please post only thevaram songs, their meansing and history background of those songs. Sri Rudram and Vedas are not part of thevarams and let us not discuss them here.

[doctorzlo]

Appar , sundarar, Gnanasampandhar lived druing the 6-th to 8th century AD, according to scholars.

They wrote a lot of songs.Gnanasampandhar was supposed to be a child prodigy but most of the songs are not available now(unfortunately)

During their time, i think religions of Tamils were Jainism,Buddism,Hinduism(like vishnu,shiva,murugan worship and other deties of Hindu pantheon)

[Beerinkol]

I pray Lord Shiva takes away "pOkku ettum" from me and gives me
"manaththakaththu malargal ettum"

Aiyaiyo! First, leave the Lord for others to get good things from him! Yes, we should be selfless (one of the malargal) and not selfish (one of the pOkku).

Actually, I am just avoiding the rush!

[MannoFr]

Appar swamigal and Sambandar Swamigal were contemporaries. In fact, the name Appar was given by Sambandar since he could not call him "Appa" since his father was alive or "Appane" as this was reserved for the God.

Sundarar was apparently from a later time and the author of Thiruthondu Thogai. This compilation was apparently lost till Rajaraja I sponsored the revival of this great piece of work as also the tradition of singing Thevarams through Oduvars in temples. Numerous inscrptions all over South India note grants to scholars of both Thevarams and Vedas (see inscriptions.whatisindia.com).

An interesting anecdote of Thiruthondu Thogai. Apparently, Sundarar was going to see Thiyagesha in Thiruvarur when there was a "Agora" Bhaktha called Viranmindar on the way. All the other devotees paid respect to Sundarar except for Viranmindar. When people asked him why he was not paying his respect to Sundarar (as Sundarar was believed to be Shiva's friend and hence followed the practice of Thozhamai Margam or treating God as a friend) he said quite loudly "What is the point of being God's friend if he does not know the importance of worhing His devotee before worshipping him?" Sundarar, quite saddened by this, asked Shiva whether he was doing the wrong thing. Shiva agreed with Viranmindar. As a homage to Viranmindar and other devotees, Shiva inspired him to compose the life stories of prominent devotees after worshipping Viranmindar and also including him as one of the most reverent devotees. (There is another interesting story where Viranmindar, though an ardent devotee of Shiva, had a fight with Shiva about Him granting extra attention to Sundarar, but that can be another post).

In response to some queries on historical information available in the Thevarams, the answer is that there were many. As Iddiappam pointed out earlier, the age of the saints marked what information they decided to capture in their songs.

Thus there are anecdotal information on the size of towns, temples, festivals, functions, professions, architceture, dharma, philosophy, religions & customs, traditions, etc.

For example Appar has captured the traditions of Thiruvarur in his Thevaram "Ambalathu Mannikoothai Aaduvan Puguvadarkku Munno Pinno." See my article "Timeless Thiruvarur" at http://www.whatisindia.com/monuments...hiruvarur.html.

He has also talked about the music and prevalence of art in Thiruvaiyaru in a different Thevaram.

However, the best information on law, administration, quality of life, etc can be found in Sekkizhar's Periya Puranam which is essentially a buffed up and redo of Sundarar's Siruthondu Thogai with additions of Sundarar, and his parents to the list of Nayanmars. Hence, before Sekkizhar's Periya Puranam, the number of Nayanmars was only 60.