[Lt_Apple]

I share the same feelings, family is the greatest invention of mankind after GOD, joint family is the best solution for most of the social problems, I am in favor of a limited version of the joint family where the couple lives with their parents and childrens, not necessarily with the families of their siblings. Humans needs help when they are young and when they are old(second childhood) in between they can help others. In the west the young children are well taken care off but the older ones are left in a miserably position, this is what I prefer to call as animal models as manifested from the Lion to the birds. In India we are also moving from our traditional, staying with our parents to the nuclear family model. The most striking reason is the migration factor, when all the kids are scattered across the globe where would the parents be, in the era of free trade on every thing but for labor(human) movement. Even within India when people move from villages to cities the same problems persists but it is driven more by economic factors. Last but the most important is the attitudes of the women in India, whether it is the MIL or DIL role that they play and reluctance on all of us to evolve our ways of achieving a happy family without undue compromises on career etc.

[Drugmachine]

The "MY" thought in royal families was the cause for wars."My" son thought of kaikeyi and Dritharastra was the root cause of Ramayana and Mahabharatha.

In India, in the post independence era, "MY" thought started popping up in the minds of the individuals, due to western influence. As I mentioned, the "I or my" VS comes from greed and all the social problems that we see now is due to this shift.

Dear Pradheep,

Exactly, this EGOISM and GREED, is the MAIN root of HUMAN RACE', trauma!!,

Dear Balaji anNe,

Nice topic keep it up, I also love this so called JOINT FAMILY concept, but in a REAL world, it does not work out like this, esp the MOTHER -IN -LAW and DAUGHTER - IN - LAW problems, I really FEEL SO BAD for telling this, and my ELDERS PLS 4GIVE me saying ths, but I FEEL women are the ROOTS of problems in FAMILY life, be it your Mother, sister or wife, there is always a women behind all the causes

Opps sorry, JUST SAID MY VIEW, PLS ACCEPT MY APOLOGIES, if I HAVE OFFENDED ANY ONE

[Beerinkol]

we have a huge list of cousins ( brothers and sisters ) our uncles and aunts etc ....and their branches......
fortunately the relationship is still intact ...as we converge for any good or sad incident .....
I am lucky to be brought up in such a manner

My eldest Periappa ( my Father's first brother ) is 92 years now and he continues to be our Guardian along with my periamma who is 83 years......
My mother continues to give the same old respect and admiration towards them ( my Father is no more now )
Though I have 2 elder brothers, our Periappa and our cousins ( elders ) continue to guide us on every sensitive matters

Our family was joint with our periappa family for looong before the space constraint made us to find another house but the respect and the admiration continues

can someone share his / her experience ?

[NeroASERCH]

After a careful consideration, I decided to put this thread under Indian History and Culture because it was one of those respected , time tested and wonderful concept given to our previous generation by our forefathers……

30 years before ( may be 40 or even 50 ) , we had a concept of joint family system…..wherein one could see the leader of the family, Father and mother with atleast 5 children …..getting brought up and groomed …make them married ….seeing the next generation….grand children ….and the family went on further…..

despite the financial pressures and the space constraints, middle class families and lower middle class families followed this path …

One always had his / her Grandmother or grandfather or uncle or aunt to support you back home .......

this concept had lots of positives and few shortcomings ……

The positives :

1.any good or bad event….you have someone to share with
2.having a seasoned senior member comes handy during crisis
3.the junior member has lesser responsibilities as the senior continues to shoulder up to a reasonable period

Negatives :

1.Little or no privacy
2.Sharing of common expenses

However, I could find more positives in my personal experience ……..

But unfortunately, this great concept is virtually dead now and very few families follow this concept ….or no one probably ?

Why did this concept created by our forefathers is defunct now ??

Lets share our thoughts ……

[NeroASERCH]

It is in Histroy of Indians....(no no no....dont take it tooo far in the past.....just 20-50 years before)

[brraverishhh]

Mahadevan

You have echoed my thoughts . nice....

Is this new trend of small family also instrumental for the growing HOME FOR THE AGED ?

[S.T.D.]

With we two ours one it is a sustainable system with less of the negatives mentioned. I am wondering how the system survived when it was common to have 6-7 children. Every generation someone would have had to break away and start on his own. Isn't it ?

[NeroASERCH]

With we two ours one it is a sustainable system with less of the negatives mentioned. I am wondering how the system survived when it was common to have 6-7 children. Every generation someone would have had to break away and start on his own. Isn't it ?

As Varna system was followed even before, 50 years, almost all of the family members would do the same job or we can simply say, the whole family would do the same job......Hence it was not a problem....but when they had to leave the system, they were not able to be in the same bonds and now it has become almost impossible...

[Lillie_Steins]

Even if everone did the same job my surprise remains. Suppose there is a man and his wife (2 members) with a piece of farming land. Suppose the couple has 6 children. 3 women who leave after marriage and 3 men who get married (3X2 =6). When they have 6 children each, (even if you assume the grandparents would have passed away due to a low life expectancy) the household size would now be around 24. This number explodes with each passing generation. Even if the family acquires land or upps productivity, to maintain the same lifestyle, the land acquisition or productivity should grow faster than the rate of growth of family (with the binding assumption of the same job for the family).

So the system seems inherently unsustaiable without sufficient leakage (i.e. people breaking away at some stage).

I am able to understand the expansion of services and trade to a ceratin extent. But land still intrigues me.

[Fegasderty]

Dear friends
There are two reasons (one following the other) why our traditional joint family system broke to nuclear. The concept of accrueing wealth for children is the first step in breaking jointfamily system. Instead of having a common wealth among brother's children, when the concept of "My" children comes into picture,leads to disintegration of the family system. From this "my"comes the concept of my independence, my likes and dislikes. This is the second reason for this joint family systemdown fall. Our tradition always gave less importance to the individuality,but more for the common welfare. When the individual importance is given there isnoquestion about joint family. If we cannot adjust and live amongfamily memebers then where is the question of universal brotherhood?

Our concept of family was the joint family include grandparents, brothers family and children. Now family means wife husband and children. Everyone else is excluded.
In the west the importance of individuality is given so much importance that even the family system of husbnad wife and children is demolished.

[Ifroham4]

Pradeep .... nice exchange of thoughts

but tell me how this MY concept crept in ?

There has to be a significant shift in attitude to move from OURS to MY ....

can you pls explain

[Beerinkol]

The "MY" thought in royal families was the cause for wars."My" son thought of kaikeyi and Dritharastra was the root cause of Ramayana and Mahabharatha.

In India, in the post independence era, "MY" thought started popping up in the minds of the individuals, due to western influence. As I mentioned, the "I or my" VS comes from greed and all the social problems that we see now is due to this shift.

[TorryJens]

[MannoFr]

2 generations back in the large joint family of grandparents, uncles, aunts & cousins the quality of life was excellent withgiving, sharing, adjusting tendencies abundantly encouraged. Co-sisters looked after all the children, fed them, tended them even suckled another one's baby without a shade of "my" in their thoughts. The children grew up learning a lot of practical wisdom, general knowledge & maturity. Today's mothers can't look after even their own children/child and need the service of a creche! elders are taken care of by old age homes. Selfish, spoilt brats with precosity, obesity, intelligence and stunted emotional growth are the present generation. There are exceptions where values are still adhered to. But the trend towards materialistic life & selfish mentality is on the increase, aping the West.

[radikal]

Dear Raghu and PP,
The MIL DIl problem comes when the MIL tries to live the life of the DIL. The older generation does not allow the younger generation to live their life. The MIL does not give her attachment to her son and claims "MY" son. The son becomes a materalistic possession for the MIL and so the problem starts.
The problem of the DIL is that she can tolerate her own mother's draw backs but cannot do that with MIL.

Our Indian tradition is so beautifully designed that in old age one should take vanaprastha. It is not physcially leaving the home , but the time to seek more inwards. The older generation should advice children but with detachment.

The current older genration suffers from all sorts of old age ailments because of this non-retirement (mentally). When they live with this detachment then they embody wisdom. Current old parents lack that wisdom because of this detachment. I have personally met a few old parents who do vanaprashtha and I can see wisdom in their talk and peace for themselves and for the members of the family.

[Fegasderty]

The "MY" thought in royal families was the cause for wars."My" son thought of kaikeyi and Dritharastra was the root cause of Ramayana and Mahabharatha.

In India, in the post independence era, "MY" thought started popping up in the minds of the individuals, due to western influence. As I mentioned, the "I or my" VS comes from greed and all the social problems that we see now is due to this shift.

"MY" has never been a problem. In fact "MY" is very important for many good things. "MY what?" is the problem. If you think only of "MY wife" and not "MY mother", it is problem.

Sometimes it is very crucial. Otherwise "MY nation" and "MY language" would be dead, "MY people" will suffer.

[TorryJens]

If you think only of "MY wife" and not "MY mother", it is problem. Here the "My" in the form of attachment is the problem. Instead if you have the thought of just the mother and wife , then you treat them as they are and there is no problem.

Otherwise "MY nation" and "MY language" would be dead, "MY people" will suffer This leads to terrorism. Instead if you treat all people alike, then everyone is benefitted instead of only my "nation". One should respect one's mother country and nation , language, people. But in action , it should benefit everyone, only then there would be peace in the world.

[Lillie_Steins]

I think we are jumping fast here. At least too fast for me

Blaming individualism for the demise of the joint family is a quick answer but IMO it glosses over certain things.

Yes a generation back grandfather uncles and cousins were all under one roof. But my question is: how come it was grandfather only...not his brothers too. If that were also the case... and if great grandfather also was in the same house, then how come great grandad's brothers weren't there.

What I am driving at is, the system is inherently unsustainable. At some point a branch breaks off (due to feud, migration, occupation etc). Then the scion starts off anew and we have about 3 generations living together and then branches separate again and so on. I suspect this would have been the pattern throughout history.

After all, we are all Adam's children. I don't think the rise of individualism alone can explain how we are not all under one roof now.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

then how come great grandad's brothers weren't there Nucleating due to over crowding is not a problem. Nucleating for catering individual's likes and dislikes creates problems.

[Big A]

"Nucleating due to over crowding is not a problem. Nucleating for catering individual's likes and dislikes creates problems."

Yes, what Pradheep says is correct!