[Lt_Apple]

Hi Sri ... i believe that Astro is a Science ....
but can u explain about what was said by r_kk above ?

Hi bingleguy,
Don't expect any answer for simple basic question, from the people who had decided themselves Jyothisham as science. Unfortunately the astronomical knowledge of our ancestors mixed with so many superstitious beliefs and interlinked with religious beliefs. I am eagerly waiting from many hubbers those who are writing here, to start any reliable scientific discussions instead of telling the old stories and myths mixing with pseudo science.

[NeroASERCH]

r_kk, it is a waste of time to expect any rational answers for any of these claims. I can't keep count of the number of questions on which any scientific proofs have been forthcoming.

Any research is a waste of time, if not for the quest of knowledge. If you are content with what you know, of course it is not necessary to study anything, be it astrology or rocket science. These discussions are only for those who think they dont know much and want to learn more.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

Rat Joshiyam is a science;
A detail research carried out on poem written by yagahva rishi (lived in 4BC! Who knows ) proves that rats can predict the earthquake few days before human can sense it. So it implies that rats can feel the vibration of earth as well as vibration of human mind i.e., nothing but bad and good thoughts, (myth making -1 ). When it picks up the card (ignore, whether it will get rice for every card it picks up) it understand the cosmic vibration (myth making-2 ) around ones body. So Rat joshiyam can be considered as the valid science and we all can be proud about the wisdom of our ancestors on behavioral studies on animals. Those who want to broaden the knowledge on “parrot joshiyam”, “malayal mandirikam” etc, don’t be confined with the little knowledge gained in school and college text books. Open your minds for wisdom of thoughts provided by few hubbers here.
(I hope no one takes my message seriously! )

[softy54534]

Rat Joshiyam is a science;
A detail research carried out on poem written by yagahva rishi (lived in 4BC! Who knows ) proves that rats can predict the earthquake few days before human can sense it. So it implies that rats can feel the vibration of earth as well as vibration of human mind i.e., nothing but bad and good thoughts, (myth making -1 ). When it picks up the card (ignore, whether it will get rice for every card it picks up) it understand the cosmic vibration (myth making-2 ) around ones body. So Rat joshiyam can be considered as the valid science and we all can be proud about the wisdom of our ancestors on behavioral studies on animals. Those who want to broaden the knowledge on “parrot joshiyam”, “malayal mandirikam” etc, don’t be confined with the little knowledge gained in school and college text books. Open your minds for wisdom of thoughts provided by few hubbers here.
(I hope no one takes my message seriously! )

we are not talking about any kind of fantasy josiyams that some use to deceive others. i do agree that most of these are fake and have nothing to do with science. we are talking about the actual astrology. prove it or disprove it, if you have supporting facts.

[9mm_fan]

prove it or disprove it, if you have supporting facts.

Hi Floraipuyal,
I am having difficulties in understanding why you do not believe the forecast by Rats as valid ones. I hope you might be knowing the facts that it is worshiped in Karni Mata Rat Temple and considered as vehicle of Lord Ganesha. I don’t think you are aware of our ancestral story (sorry wisdom!) about the fighting between Lord Ganesha and moon, when Moon laughed at him after falling from his vehicle (Rat). So don’t underestimate the scientific knowledge behind Rats. If Rat is the main reason for the fight between Moon and God, then why can’t it predict Moon’s movement (astrology). Sorry I lost the habit of writing coherently after reading this thread.

Ok let me come to the point...

Please read my first post (page-1) on this thread which disproves the basis of astrology based on fundamental law of physics (relationship between pull, Mass and distance between multiple objects, effect on confined or unconfined large elastic bodies, scientific studies on human behavior w.r.t movements of moon) and then place your views.

[Lt_Apple]

Originally Posted by FloraiPuyal prove it or disprove it, if you have supporting facts.

Hi Floraipuyal,
I am having difficulties in understanding why you do not believe the forecast by Rats as valid ones. I hope you might be knowing the facts that it is worshiped in Karni Mata Rat Temple and considered as vehicle of Lord Ganesha. I don’t think you are aware of our ancestral story (sorry wisdom!) about the fighting between Lord Ganesha and moon, when Moon laughed at him after falling from his vehicle (Rat). So don’t underestimate the scientific knowledge behind Rats. If Rat is the main reason for the fight between Moon and God, then why can’t it predict Moon’s movement (astrology). Sorry I lost the habit of writing coherently after reading this thread.

Ok let me come to the point...

Please read my first post (page-1) on this thread which disproves the basis of astrology based on fundamental law of physics (relationship between pull, Mass and distance between multiple objects, effect on confined or unconfined large elastic bodies, scientific studies on human behavior w.r.t movements of moon) and then place your views. r_kk,
I can understand your reasoning. In fact, I had these same questions 12 years back. trust me on this. I never believed in these and even till date, I dont believe in stories such as the one that you mentioned. But, ignoring these stories, there is quite a lot of facts in the typical texts. I am trying to learn those. I dont claim I am an expert in both. I am still learning both parallelly and also believe that both are not different in anyway.
I didnt believe in astrology till I started studying science and astrology parallelly. I dont know to what extent you have read einstein, hawking and penrose. I had a question, if light takes such a long time, the stars are not in the same positions as we see today. How, then, can astrology be true? I got the answer in parallel universe theory and space-time.
As I said in my previous replies, both macroscopic and microscopic behavior can be accurately predicted by knowing the relative positions of other elements in space-time. you can refer to hawking-penrose papers on these topics published some 10 years back or so.
It has been recently proved that if a pair of entangled particles which were once in contact with each other, but now totally out of contact, can show random behavior that is strongly correlated. This, called the Einstein-podolsky effect is still the greates mystery in physics to the western world. Ancient texts speak of something very similar to this, which is not possible if they didnt have the knowledge. This correlation, if extended to macroscopic theory ( which still now is not even explained in microscopic theory), this will be a proof that planets or any heavenly body could drastically affect anyother living/nonliving thing.
If you want to mock at eastern science, please mock at western science first. If you are baffled why, try extending quantum theory to macroscopic particles or relativity to microscopic particles. The greatest minds of the west are still trying to even understand why there is a singularity.
In fact hawking once said "nature abhors naked singularities" since he could not prove the existence of singularities despite numerous calculations. He lost a bet of $100 to Preskill and Thorne who disproved his statement and theoretically proved that singularity can of course be created by an "advanced civilization"
This type of singularites are quite often mentioned in ancient texts, though there are not any technical information on how they achieved this. My point is, no one can even imagine the existence of such things without a fair amount of knowledge on classical quantum theory and relativity.
Of course there are a lot of stupid additions to the original texts as later authors started adding their imaginations to them. We have to ignore what is irrelevant and find the real science behind these.
The main reason I believe astrology to be a science is that to the formula to predict the behavior of intermediate particles ( which fall between microscopic and macroscopic), if at all we can find, would have to include the relative location of heavenly bodies, in addition to the particle's historical positions in space-time and current position. eastern astrology is a detailed one, taking into account the exact space-time co ordinates of a person's birth relative to a set of heavenly bodies and from that point, its a simple set of manipulations to arrive at the current state of the person. The knowledge we lack now is, there are few more factors to be considered for accurate prediction and this is the information that I am searching for.

phew.. its becoming huge to include any more detail. sorry.

[Paul Bunyan]

Hi FloraiPuyal
Good to see your post containing lot of reference to Modern Physics, Quantum mechanics, particle physics, state of particles, Einsteen, Stephen Hawkins etc etc… but unfortunately you are trying to relate all these modern theories and hypothesis to religion, old ancestral knowledge and astrology. I don’t have any doubts on our ancestor’s knowledge on astronomy. Some of the reference in Tholkappiyam and Thirumandiram indirectly relates to theory of relativity. Similarly there are references about flights in Ramayana. But if we start claiming that they had known theory of relativity or aerodynamics in real sense, no one will believe it. Your long message tries its best to connect to extremely opposite points/theories but the major link is miserably missing. If you really want to write the link between astrology and science please write the exact slogans supporting astrology from any of the ancestral work and give unbiased explanation first. Explain the planets considered in astrology and how it relates to day to day life to creatures on earth. Then we can have a healthy discussion (I can also write quoting from Fritjof Cofra, Deepak Chopra works etc etc relating to eastern wisdom and explain how the real (!) scientific views differ from them!)

[NeroASERCH]

Hi FloraiPuyal
Good to see your post containing lot of reference to Modern Physics, Quantum mechanics, particle physics, state of particles, Einsteen, Stephen Hawkins etc etc… but unfortunately you are trying to relate all these modern theories and hypothesis to religion, old ancestral knowledge and astrology. I don’t have any doubts on our ancestor’s knowledge on astronomy. Some of the reference in Tholkappiyam and Thirumandiram indirectly relates to theory of relativity. Similarly there are references about flights in Ramayana. But if we start claiming that they had known theory of relativity or aerodynamics in real sense, no one will believe it. Your long message tries its best to connect to extremely opposite points/theories but the major link is miserably missing. If you really want to write the link between astrology and science please write the exact slogans supporting astrology from any of the ancestral work and give unbiased explanation first. Explain the planets considered in astrology and how it relates to day to day life to creatures on earth. Then we can have a healthy discussion (I can also write quoting from Fritjof Cofra, Deepak Chopra works etc etc relating to eastern wisdom and explain how the real (!) scientific views differ from them!)

hey r_kk,
I am not trying to prove the supremacy of astrology over western science. Nor did I say that I know everything. As i said, we have to either prove it or disprove it. To do this, we have to study it completely.
Yes I accept there is a missing link, also I confessed that we have lost a lot of knowledge. All I am trying to do is to rediscover the lost knowledge. I am sure it will be extremely helpful to the modern world.

Again, I know and accept that it will be highly stupid to claim something without valid proofs. We have to study more, find out the real facts, bring out the proofs. ( I quoted only the western science facts. I compared them with my knowledge on eastern science. I did not quote any eastern science from anyone. please note that and do not mistake me for someone who googles relation between astrology and science and quotes based on that. I am a sincere student of science and I read hawking and penrose than sidney sheldon. The very book I am reading now as i type this is "Entanglement" by Amir D Aczel, student of Heisenberg. )

I have given my views why I consider eastern astrology as science. This is my theory and it shall hold till it is proved or disproved satisfactorily.

And for your last point, dear, if I knew that, I would be preparing my speech for this year's nobel laurette ceremony.

It might take years for my research to yield satisfiable results, amidst my hectic work schedule, but I hope to get proofs soon.

[S.T.D.]

Hi FloraiPuyal,
I appreciate your intentions and wishes to explore the unknown side of science. If you can reach the position to prepare sppech for the Noble laurette ceremony, I will appreciate it. Before going ahead to such high level of macro-micro level physics, parallel universe etc etc, why can't you explain the very simple question put forward by me based on Newtons law of gravity. I also admire the high level of thinking our great Indian thinkers like Buddha and ThiruMoolar, Many Tamil Saivaite literary authors (like siva Nana botham etc) had about universe and uncertainities. But astrology is somewhat different which contradicts with the basic law of gravity itself. Please read my questions given in first page and reply if you can. Let us discuss all high funda's latter.

[S.T.D.]

"Jyothisha sasthra" is not a science, it may be pseudo science. A simple calculation given at the following link can shatter the entire basics of the so called "extensive calculation"

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewt...=4841&start=19

Mr. r_kk, don't you that the Moon's pull is 0.0027N/ 80kg person before reading the link that you have provided.? And do you want some one to explain you that Gravitational Force is a "long range, Weak force" and Nuclear Force is "Very Short Range, very Strong Force"? And do you also want someone to tell you that wave pattern in the ocean changes according to the postion of Moon...?

If your concept of science is something, which is documented in eithehr Greek Or German or English language, being authored by a white Skinned, European or American, then I am not for any discussion or argument with you....I would suggust you, before you start arguing about a point, you better know atleast a bit about what your are arguing against....and your haste conclusion that Jyothisham is not a science as a very first post in this thread revealed your aquiantance about Jyothisham and that is why I purposefully ignored your post.

Jyothisham deals with how earth quakes can be predicted when a certain formation of Clouds appear in the sky.....It also has the facility to predict natural devastations from appearance on colour pattern in Sky....

Jyothisham doest not restrict itself by just predicting a Kuppan's or Suppan's marriage, job or children question....I accept, that there are lot of people claiming to be astrologers, arrpear in T.V and speaks about "Adhrista Kal, Adhrishta Niram" etc.,

I repeat, even if you had the slightest aquiantance about Jyothisha Shastram, you would not have been so arrogant in your posting.....

[MannoFr]

Mr. r_kk, don't you that the Moon's pull is 0.0027N/ 80kg person before reading the link that you have provided.? And do you want some one to explain you that Gravitational Force is a "long range, Weak force" and Nuclear Force is "Very Short Range, very Strong Force"? And do you also want someone to tell you that wave pattern in the ocean changes according to the postion of Moon...?

If your concept of science is something, which is documented in eithehr Greek Or German or English language, being authored by a white Skinned, European or American, then I am not for any discussion or argument with you........

Please come to the point and reply to the simple question instead of asking what kind of science I believe or you believe, why I can't get answer to these simple questions etc etc. How do you correlate the celestial positions of planets and mythical object/phenomenon to day to day life of all creatures and non-life forms? Don't convert this discussion to individual level (what I believe or whether I make hasty conclusion just like that or not etc). Your statement on earthquake remembers me an astrologer who made big claims in other thread! Please come to the point. Tell me whether you have any kind of statistics or valid repeatable proofs to claim astrology as science. I had requested many people for so many years and failed to get any such proofs. In micellenous section here also, I requested a famous professional astrologer to give some proof long time back, but till now I haven't get any reply.
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewt...r=asc&start=27. If you can declare “Jyothitam as science” in the title of thread without any valid proofs, I also have the equal rights to start my comment as “pseudo science”

[Paul Bunyan]

srivatsan wrote: 'Jyothisham deals with how earth quakes can be predicted when a certain formation of Clouds appear in the sky.....It also has the facility to predict natural devastations from appearance on colour pattern in Sky.... '

Hi guys before proceeding furthur with the discussion we have to define Jyothisham from the above statement it looks like Srivatsan is talking more about remote sensing, Modern science has paved the way to predict certain happenings like earth quakes/Tsunami based on some leading indicators. The simplest example is, if there is an under water earth quake(known after fact) near a land mass than there is a very good chance of a Tsunami, if we install a Tsunami warning system that detects the wave patterns we can get a early warning, this is possible by a proper understanding of 'cause and effect', once the 'cause' has happened we can predict the 'effect' , this is an absolutely rational science. Without the proper understanding of the cause an effect we can only speculate based on empirical observations, some times even such predictions can be correct but it is not scientific. For instance there is a big earth quake 9.0 on the scale near the coast of indonesia (the cause) it results in a tsunami in TN coast (effect 1) people start running towards the land in the coastal regions(effect 2), the govt machineries in TN/India visit the coastal regions in TN (effect 3) based on this empiral observations if I say, when there is a earth quake close to coast in indonesia, officials in TN would visit the coast areas. I would be just making a fool of myself for being unscientific, but guess what my statement would be correct whenever the earth quake is more than 8.0 or so.

[Slonopotam845]

Originally Posted by srivatsan Mr. r_kk, don't you that the Moon's pull is 0.0027N/ 80kg person before reading the link that you have provided.? And do you want some one to explain you that Gravitational Force is a "long range, Weak force" and Nuclear Force is "Very Short Range, very Strong Force"? And do you also want someone to tell you that wave pattern in the ocean changes according to the postion of Moon...?

If your concept of science is something, which is documented in eithehr Greek Or German or English language, being authored by a white Skinned, European or American, then I am not for any discussion or argument with you........

Please come to the point and reply to the simple question instead of asking what kind of science I believe or you believe, why I can't get answer to these simple questions etc etc. How do you correlate the celestial positions of planets and mythical object/phenomenon to day to day life of all creatures and non-life forms? Don't convert this discussion to individual level (what I believe or whether I make hasty conclusion just like that or not etc). Your statement on earthquake remembers me an astrologer who made big claims in other thread! Please come to the point. Tell me whether you have any kind of statistics or valid repeatable proofs to claim astrology as science. I had requested many people for so many years and failed to get any such proofs. In micellenous section here also, I requested a famous professional astrologer to give some proof long time back, but till now I haven't get any reply.
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewt...r=asc&start=27. If you can declare “Jyothitam as science” in the title of thread without any valid proofs, I also have the equal rights to start my comment as “pseudo science” Hey r_kk, I guess I understand your question. Astrology is not a cause and effect science. No, the planets have nothing to do with a person's life. It is the position of the planets, based on which we say something is going to happen to a specific person. It doesnt deal with any gravity or any other physical properties of any heavenly bodies.
This is very similar to curve fitting on real space. We have the relative positions of some bodies, which we take for reference. In fact we can choose any of those bodies, including the position of r_kk, but, in general, it is easier to predict the positions of some bodies like the planets and some stars, since we have observed their behavior and know their paths. I cannot have r_kk as a reference point since r_kk's motion is random to me, but moon follows a constant path and I can predict its position with reference to any location on earth at any given time.
You are trying to mix astrology with some popular western beliefs such as people turning lunatics or werewolves on a full moon day. Never did we say that because moon is at a point the whole mass will go crazy. Astrology needs a lot of careful calculations and data before we can predict something.
Again, astrology is a science, in which we predict the position/behavior of something based on the relative position/behavior of certain heavenly bodies, that are easy for us to track.

[Slonopotam845]

Originally Posted by kannannn r_kk, it is a waste of time to expect any rational answers for any of these claims. I can't keep count of the number of questions on which any scientific proofs have been forthcoming.

Saringa opicer..... Srivatsan, I don't remember passing a curt comment on you before and I expect the same from you. r_kk's question is simple and clear. Quote a few shlokas or whatever and give your interpretation or show the connection between the celestial position of planets and moon and human destiny scientifically. Then I can accept your claim of astrology as a science. As for you thoughts on western science, I am reminded of the thread in the Miscellaneous section on why there are not many Indian inventions in the past few decades. Could our dogmatic attitudes be one of the reasons?

I cannot have r_kk as a reference point since r_kk's motion is random to me, but moon follows a constant path and I can predict its position with reference to any location on earth at any given time.

You are contradicting yourself. You say r_kk's motion is random and moon follows a predictable path. How can you then correlate moon's predictable path with r_kk's random actions?

[doctorzlo]

Originally Posted by srivatsan Originally Posted by kannannn r_kk, it is a waste of time to expect any rational answers for any of these claims. I can't keep count of the number of questions on which any scientific proofs have been forthcoming.

Saringa opicer..... Srivatsan, I don't remember passing a curt comment on you before and I expect the same from you. r_kk's question is simple and clear. Quote a few shlokas or whatever and give your interpretation or show the connection between the celestial position of planets and moon and human destiny scientifically. Then I can accept your claim of astrology as a science. As for you thoughts on western science, I am reminded of the thread in the Miscellaneous section on why there are not many Indian inventions in the past few decades. Could our dogmatic attitudes be one of the reasons?

I cannot have r_kk as a reference point since r_kk's motion is random to me, but moon follows a constant path and I can predict its position with reference to any location on earth at any given time.

You are contradicting yourself. You say r_kk's motion is random and moon follows a predictable path. How can you then correlate moon's predictable path with r_kk's random actions? I said "random to me", not to the nature. Also it is relative. r_kk can move randomly, but again, it would be theoretically, predictable. So, if we can know the exact positions of r_kk at any given point of time, we can use r_kk as reference. The difference is our (predictor's) knowledge and not the limits of science.

[doctorzlo]

Please come to the point and reply to the simple question instead of asking what kind of science I believe or you believe, why I can't get answer to these simple questions etc etc. How do you correlate the celestial positions of planets and mythical object/phenomenon to day to day life of all creatures and non-life forms? Don't convert this discussion to individual level (what I believe or whether I make hasty conclusion just like that or not etc). Your statement on earthquake remembers me an astrologer who made big claims in other thread! Please come to the point. Tell me whether you have any kind of statistics or valid repeatable proofs to claim astrology as science. I had requested many people for so many years and failed to get any such proofs. In micellenous section here also, I requested a famous professional astrologer to give some proof long time back, but till now I haven't get any reply.
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewt...r=asc&start=27. If you can declare “Jyothitam as science” in the title of thread without any valid proofs, I also have the equal rights to start my comment as “pseudo science”

I dont hesitate to accept that I dont exactly know the link between planetary positions and human behaviour. I think this comes as an advanced stage of Jyothisha Shastra....For example, when we study how electricity makes a Fan to rotate or a bulb to glow ,in 4th standard or 5th Standard, we are not taught about the different atomoc models or electronic configuration stuff about electron movement....Similarly, in Jyothisha what many of us are taught or aware of is basic lessons & basic formulae.

What happens in reality is many around us, study this basic formulae and claim that they are astrologers and come out and starts predicting.....But the reason why I call it a science is simple....I am not a layman or a Eatern superiority person to claim whatever from Our country is better etc.,...but I have gone thru' the basics of Jyothisham, I am born and Brought up in a family who are quitre good at Jyothisham........and I know what type of extensive calculations are applied. By seeing this, I am able to understand and that there is really something solid when I go a further to the advance stage and that is what I am trying to do.

When I didn't understand Continuity eqyation when I was in my first year of B.E., I was able to feel and understand that there is something solid in the advanced version of this......I continued to study......and now I know what is the real meaning of Continuity equation.....Every subject needs time and practice to understand Research to reach the adanced stage.........and this applied to Jyothisham as well. Researches are already made several 1000 years ago and unfortuanately they are not documented or we are not equipped to understand the Documentation.....The only way to reach the advance stage is.......either to wait pateintly till you undertand it by yourself or to study the available document and try to comprehend the rest........not critisizing at the very forst step when you dont understand the subject........I dont evade, If you think, you want to learn something, you will learn only by putting effort on it, not by throwing questions......or critisizing....!


Prediction is a part of Atrlogy...It is Not the whole Astrology...

[LottiFurmann]

srivatsan wrote: 'Jyothisham deals with how earth quakes can be predicted when a certain formation of Clouds appear in the sky.....It also has the facility to predict natural devastations from appearance on colour pattern in Sky.... '

Hi guys before proceeding furthur with the discussion we have to define Jyothisham from the above statement it looks like Srivatsan is talking more about remote sensing, Modern science has paved the way to predict certain happenings like earth quakes/Tsunami based on some leading indicators. The simplest example is, if there is an under water earth quake(known after fact) near a land mass than there is a very good chance of a Tsunami, if we install a Tsunami warning system that detects the wave patterns we can get a early warning, this is possible by a proper understanding of 'cause and effect', once the 'cause' has happened we can predict the 'effect' , this is an absolutely rational science. Without the proper understanding of the cause an effect we can only speculate based on empirical observations, some times even such predictions can be correct but it is not scientific. For instance there is a big earth quake 9.0 on the scale near the coast of indonesia (the cause) it results in a tsunami in TN coast (effect 1) people start running towards the land in the coastal regions(effect 2), the govt machineries in TN/India visit the coastal regions in TN (effect 3) based on this empiral observations if I say, when there is a earth quake close to coast in indonesia, officials in TN would visit the coast areas. I would be just making a fool of myself for being unscientific, but guess what my statement would be correct whenever the earth quake is more than 8.0 or so.

That is precisely where I intended to stear this thread....Jyothisham does the same thing...by analyzing the cause and effect, it can predict some important event.For knowing how Jyothisham links the cause and effect, we need to study more........ that is all........

[doctorzlo]

Jyothisham deals with how earth quakes can be predicted when a certain formation of Clouds appear in the sky.....It also has the facility to predict natural devastations from appearance on colour pattern in Sky....

Jyothisham doest not restrict itself by just predicting a Kuppan's or Suppan's marriage, job or children question.....

Ok, Srivatsan,
Please read our devoted hubber Mr. Suddhamma's post. He, as a firm believer of astrolgy and based on long expereience in life (more than 70 yrs, I guess) tells entirely opposite.
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewt...=asc&start=222

Astronomy is different from Astrology. .. TWO DIFFERENT BRANCHES of Science.

Only the Astrologers can predict the events ahead, based on Astrology, the Study based on planetary positions in the relevant Horoscope.


No doubt...there are Astrologers who are predicting on the Nations, People as also the whole world...

But how far their predictions have come true in practice... by Reality? Why?

I am fully convinced on the stand of one section of the Astrologers who have established Astrologically... that..

The future of a Country, or People collectively... cannot be predicted... and if done, it is contrary to the sense of Astrological- Science.

The forecast on any person or living-being alone can be realistic and practicable...because Astrology is a Spiritual-Science applicable for any creature having the Athma (Soul) and the Brain comprising of Mind...both of which are Very important in Life.

So Astrology gives much importance to the two planets ... Sun, the Athma-Kaaraka... and the Moon, the Manas-kaaraka...

Not only that much.... Sun is also the Pithru-kaaraka (Concerning Father)...Moon the Maathru-kaaraka (Concerned with Mother)... Then it is needless to elaborate...

.. that the importance of Sun and Moon in ones Horoscope, is as much important as for Father and Mother in Life..

So the Sun and Moon's positions in a Horoscope can do and undo the effects of all other planets..

Anybody can question... if the future of a Nation or its part... or its people, can be predicted, based on the relevant Birth- timings....

...Why not similar prediction for a Tree I planted and a Building founded at a particular time?... Can they answer?

...May be he is able to say, based on his rare Psycho-might of PRECOGNITION...

...and cannot be... based on Astrology.
[size=12]

[HedgeYourBets]

r_kk, it is a waste of time to expect any rational answers for any of these claims. I can't keep count of the number of questions on which any scientific proofs have been forthcoming.

Saringa opicer.....

[Slonopotam845]

r_kk, it is a waste of time to expect any rational answers for any of these claims. I can't keep count of the number of questions on which any scientific proofs have been forthcoming.