[violetgorman]

I tried to move this to the Thai culture subforum, but it got rejected there (why???), so please see comment #7 below for the type of advice I am looking for.

[KitRittyTug]

HI

It does not matter that she is Thai. If after a 20 yr relationship you still do not understand her. or her you. maybe the problem is you. there is no way to "open the eyes "
there is none so blind as those who will not see.

Is there no way to compromise? do you always have to be right?
are you so cetain that she is wrong. sounds like you are the one with closed mind.
and a little bitter towards Thai culture.

[JANALA]

If you tell us what the disagreement is about, assuming it's not something you really don't want to share (then again, this is the anonymous internet, who will know) then you'll be able to get a broad spectrum of opinions and as Khonrai says, maybe see if you are the one with the closed mind.

Care to share?

[lXwVlTgO]

Since you 2 come from different cultures you think she is wrong, but she might think the same about you.

So, who will judge who is right and who is wrong, the one who judges made up his/her own Rules as well, another one judging might come to different conclusions.

So if we don't know what these misundertsandings are about, how can we help; and even knowing it you could probably ask 10 different people and get 10 different suggestions.

So at the end it's up to you, and if you can't manage it yourself after being together 20 years you might even never really understood each other in the past as well.

[violetgorman]

Thank's for the responses so far (which I will take on board), but I am not after personal advice - I can get that from family and friends, thanks.

Instead, I am asking for advice regarding techniques for dealing with a, non uncommon, Thai trait of 'wilful ignorance'.

If you do not recognize that such a trait is not uncommon amongst Thai people, then it is doubtful that you will be able to provide the type of advice I am looking for.

I was specifically interested in hearing from those Thai people who have managed to rise above the trait (through mindfulness), and become more open, honest & sharing and less defensive, when confronted with disagreements.

As this behavior can equally be applied to Thai on Thai relationships, including regarding things like political disputes (as evidenced by the ongoing red/yellow political mess), perhaps this post should really be in the Culture sub forum, so I will post it there as well.

[violetgorman]

PS - I know that 'willful ignorance' is not only found in Thai people - I was just hoping to hear from Thai's who had overcome the problem in themselves, or others.

[violetgorman]

It seems the topic is too sensitive for the Thai Lifestyle & Culture forum, so I will repost here:

I would be interested in any advice regarding how to deal with helping a Thai friend rise above what seems to be a not uncommon Thai trait, that I think is best described as: "willful ignorance, or stubborn ignorance, born from the need to save face".

Whilst I recognise that willful ignorance is not an exclusively Thai trait, I am specifically interested in hearing from those Thai people who have managed to rise above the trait (through mindfulness), and become more open, honest & sharing and less defensive, when confronted with disagreements.

Can you recommend any techniques to 'open the eyes' of a thai who only sees things their way (often misunderstanding). It is not a language problem, but rather a communication problem.

Basically, I am worried that some Thai seem to be unable to back down through fear of losing face (or proving something?), and I am having great difficulty getting them to even listen properly to to see that there might be another side to the story.

(If you do not recognize that such a trait is not uncommon amongst Thai people, then it is doubtful that you will be able to provide the type of advice I am looking for).

As this behavior can equally be applied to Thai on Thai relationships, including regarding things like political disputes (as evidenced by the ongoing red/yellow political mess), I think this post belongs more in the Culture forum rather than this forum, or even in the Private deeper discussions forum, which unfortunately I do not have access to (yet).

[aideriimibion]

It seems the topic is too sensitive for the Thai Lifestyle & Culture forum, so I will repost here:

It was removed from the Thai Lifestyle & Culture Forum because you posted the same topic in more than one Forum.

David

[dafodilkemmy]

"Face" is important to Thais and many other Asians. Often, appearance is more important than reality.
"Willful ignorance" can sometimes be attributed to Buddhism, and the value of accepting things as they are, rather than how we think they should be.


In the West, we often have a different problem.
We always believe we are right.
If someone disagrees, we believe they are wrong.

Judging by the responses, to the responses, we may be dealing with the latter scenario.

[violetgorman]

It was removed from the Thai Lifestyle & Culture Forum because you posted the same topic in more than one Forum.

David

OK - then is there a process to have the thread moved?
It is not really a relationship issue, more an issue involving psychology and self improvement techniques.

I basically know that there is no quick fix to this sort of personal growth issue, as Khonrai says "there is none so blind as those who will not see", and unfortunately some may never even attempt to see.

If the solution was simple, then Thailand would have fewer yellow or red shirts, and more orange or white shirts.

And I reiterate, such closed mindedness is not an exclusive Thai trait, and therefore I am not bitter towards Thai culture.
I was just hoping to learn if any Thai's, who recognize what I am talking about, can give any tips on techniques to expedite the self improvement process.

[violetgorman]

"Face" is important to Thais and many other Asians. Often, appearance is more important than reality.
"Willful ignorance" can sometimes be attributed to Buddhism, and the value of accepting things as they are, rather than how we think they should be.


In the West, we often have a different problem.
We always believe we are right.
If someone disagrees, we believe they are wrong.

Judging by the responses, to the responses, we may be dealing with the latter scenario.

I think we need to separate the 'ignorance' and the 'face' aspects.

Also I doubt Buddhism is the cause as there is nothing 'accepting' about closed mindedness, and ignorance is not an exclusively asian characteristic - we all exhibit it, however some are more willing to learn than others.

btw, are the snide personal attacks really necessary?

[KitRittyTug]

HI

willful ignorance or stuborn ignorance as you put it. Is in the eyes of the beholder "you"
There is no way to change until they become aware of. or accept your concept.

Our two party system in USA is no less willful ignorant than the red and yellow partys in Thailand. maybe more so.

the world is full of new age messiah's who think they have the answer to life's questions.
what makes you think you have the answers ? and we should follow you.

[violetgorman]

HI

willful ignorance or stuborn ignorance as you put it. Is in the eyes of the beholder "you"
There is no way to change until they become aware of. or accept your concept.

Our two party system in USA is no less willful ignorant than the red and yellow partys in Thailand. maybe more so.

the world is full of new age messiah's who think they have the answer to life's questions.
what makes you think you have the answers ? and we should follow you.

From my original request:
"I am specifically interested in hearing from those Thai people who have managed to rise above the trait (through mindfulness), and become more open, honest & sharing and less defensive, when confronted with disagreements."

Anyone?

[AntonayPina]

you would be surprised that the majority of Thais are neither yellow nor red, they just want peace and go on with their lives. but of course they won't go rallying and smashing things.

I'm moving the forum to the culture section at your request.

[nmnrIjGB]

"Face" is important to Thais and many other Asians. Often, appearance is more important than reality.

"Willful ignorance" can sometimes be attributed to Buddhism, and the value of accepting things as they are, rather than how we think they should be.

These two statements are completely opposed, and in my experience the concept of "face" is more important to most Thais than the Buddha's teachings.


ogb,

Since the concept of face doesn't really exist in the west (where I presume you are from), then it will lead to misunderstandings. How much have you read to try to understand Thai culture? Books like Thailand Fever and Culture Shock: Thailand may give you some insight on why Thais think and act the way they do.

If you want to speak to Thais who have overcome this "problem" then I suggest talking to a Buddhist monk.

[AntonayPina]

I don't think after 20 years it is something that can be fixed with Thailand Fever. I understand that after a while you just get sick of things that initially you find exotic or charming.
I wouldn't slam the OP but I have no advice to offer either. it's a fair but of compromise all the time but sometimes you just find yourself at the end of a rope.

[boXGWf04]

in that case a new partner would be a good idea

[violetgorman]

Thanks Betti & Kikenyoy.

I am very interesting in improving my own ways of doing and seeing things (I was not always that way, but have mellowed with age!)

Deep down I basically know that such things are personal to the individual, and we can each only take such steps when we are ready - I was looking for tips to help encourage my partner to do the same (or even consider doing it!), and I realise I was clutching at straws, but thought maybe a thai could recognise going through the same process themselves and could provide some insight.

For those that are interested, I found the book 'The Happiness Trap' by Dr Russ Harris very helpful in learning to separate ones self from ones thoughts - it includes some laymans versions of techniques similar to Buddhist insight mindfulness.

[NutChusty]

It took my former Thai girlfriend 7 months, to realize I was not ever going to give her money to support her families life style, because she had a well paying job and did not need to be supported by me. It takes a lot of persistence, before they will realize there way is not the only way, but eventually it will sink in.

[prearpaccew]

Thanks, PeaceRichard for some thoughtful comments.



In a personal relationship that might make things difficult, because if a person is not capable of self reflection, are they really capable of giving you real intimacy? (and I'm NOT talking about sex!)

My question would be, has your friend ever experienced western culture ? How much Thai culture have you experienced ? It would be easier to meet in the middle if both of you knew where the other is coming from.