[Eromereorybig]

I completely agree. Furthermore, the entire premise of this thread is highly distasteful. It is little wonder that none of our Thai members have decided to participate in yet another thoughtless and shallow portrayal of Thai people.

You are misrepresenting the poster's intention of trying to understand the different ways Thais react. For example, the issue of face.

It was meant to be a serious and helpful discussion

The references to Pattaya and disrespect to Thai women ( which the poster did not do incidentally) are just attempts to hijack the thread. I dislike Stickman too but that is not a reason for rubbishing everything in the article but not coming up with any helpful comments.

[yWleIJm4]

A true story: Person waiting for an appointment with a Thai in Bangkok. Waits half an hour, no show so rings on mobile. Says he is near Sukhumvit Soi xx in heavy traffic. Knowing the area, waits half an hour. No show, rings again. Traffic heavy, be with you in 10 minutes.

The guy was actually in Chiangmai and another Thai had to explain the "excuses" were to avoid the person getting upset.

You see many Thais think differently. No right or wrong - just different.

I will go out on a limb and say that is wrong, regardless of your culture. It's one thing to lie to cover up a schedule mistake; that can and does happen everywhere on the planet. But leading someone else to waste further time waiting for you is extremely inconsiderate and I can't believe anyone would consider that right behavior under any circumstances.

---

Having said that, I suppose I will be on the lookout for it. If someone says they are on their way but in heavy traffic, perhaps I should ask them whether another day might be more convenient. That probably is the face-saving way to think about it.

[violetgorman]

Thanks Bassai, Mister A and Visionchaser for your input.

[cefunonge]

I think for any good relationship to work properly - the relationship should be the #1 priority of both people. It's fine for each individual to have a different outlook on life depending on their culture and traditions - but for it to really succeed as a relationship - each person will need to make a few sacrifices for the good of the relationship. What was the old saying "It takes one to tango". No - that wasn't it - maybe it was "It takes two to tango"

[violetgorman]

Got my post count up, so here is the link referred to above.

I think it is a must read for anyone looking to have a long term (including platonic, non platonic or friendship) relationship with a Thai.

Hope it helps to provide understanding of the issues that might be at play.

[Eromereorybig]

HI

If you are useing Stickmans as your bible to Thai relationships no wonder you are haveing such a hard time.
that is a totaly one sided forum geared toward expat males. great site if you like pattaya
and have no respect for Thai women

The OP was not indicating any disrespect for Thai women or making any reference to Pattaya. Commenting on that is in my view a very dishonest way of making a contribution to the forum. He was quoting from Stickman about the concept of face.

"Thailand Fever" makes the point better than the Stickman article; but that is no reason to rubbish a post and the poster just because he quotes from Stickman.

The concept of face takes some getting used to and the poster was asking for ideas to deal with it. Constructive comments might have been better.

Smiling and explaining a point in a different way, moving away and getting back on topic later, discussing privately and not in a group, changing the subject for the moment. Many different "techniques" depending on the circumstances. If you understand why a Thai will lie in order to save face, you are beginning to understand.

This could be an interesting forum discussion. I don't have all the answers and willing to learn more.

[violetgorman]

See [link removed by Mod] for a good article on the wilful ignorance issue, or Google "How to be intimate with face".
Sorry about not being able to privide a link but I don't have those privileges as my post count is not high enough.

I thought that applied to direct links.

[Eromereorybig]

It took my former Thai girlfriend 7 months, to realize I was not ever going to give her money to support her families life style, because she had a well paying job and did not need to be supported by me. It takes a lot of persistence, before they will realize there way is not the only way, but eventually it will sink in.

this is what I think the OP is trying to get at. how do you get thais to discuss these differences instead of saying: i don't know, mae bhen rai, or don't think too much

[Eromereorybig]

This strikes me as rather strange from where I sit. I do not see a lot of thoughtfulness in California, and those who are thinking the hardest about how to live their lives tend to be those pursuing "new age" (Eastern-inspired) philosophies. Perhaps we can say that everyone who is not questioning (or at least open to questioning) what they were raised to believe is going to be somewhat (unconsciously) insensitive to people from different cultures. It probably transcends "face" or "rationalism" or other cultural constructs and is just the way humans are wired. I'm not sure what opens an individual's eyes to this habit of thought, but if they are not even aware of it, for sure they are not going to change.

Just chill out a bit; don't let negative posters get you down. Just ignore and respond (even pm ) those that are constructive.

The book "Thailand Fever" might help. ( pm Richard Barrow)

I don't agree with all of it but it is a good read. Widen your experiences with different classes of Thai. Try to put your point of view in a diffeent way and try to see theirs as well. Discussions like this are difficult with Thais for reasons already mentioned. But keep in there.

Remember the Latin Nil Carborundum Illegitimum
" Don't let the bastards grind you down". There are some sensible helpful posters on here

[KitRittyTug]

HI

If you are useing Stickmans as your bible to Thai relationships no wonder you are haveing such a hard time.
that is a totaly one sided forum geared toward expat males. great site if you like pattaya
and have no respect for Thai women

[KitRittyTug]

HI

OGB
Of course I read the article. and my Thai wife also, her comment was he sounds like butterfly. the person in the article has been in thailand 1 and half yrs and has had over 10 girlfriends maybe that is why he is havening trouble finding a good relationship.
plus I doubt if he is running around an upscale or even typical low income thai lifestyle.

Stickmans is a great site for info on bar scene and cheap expat living but not for relationships. it is like going to KKK to try and understand blacks in america.

It is great to try and understand but are you truly trying to understand or to just rationalize your feelings and looking for article or people that agree with you.?

[violetgorman]

HI
It is great to try and understand but are you truly trying to understand or to just rationalize your feelings and looking for article or people that agree with you.?

I said from the start I was looking for techniques to help someone overcome wilful (intentional) ignorance, as I saw the stubborn aversion to loss of face as an obstacle to a true intimate relationship (not just sex & work).
However I now realize that was wishful thinking because a problem first needs to be recognized before it can be dealt with, and that process can only happen when the person is ready.

It can be a minefield and like I said before each individual will have a different threshold as to how much of their values they are prepared to give up, and what sort of relationship they are prepared to settle for.

I see no sense in carrying on this thread by making a list of Thai wilful ignorance examples just to prove a point, as like I said before, it's not an exclusively Thai trait, and it is up to each reader to judge for themselves the extent of wilful ignorance they have seen exhibited in Thailand
(including amongst their personal relationships, the Thai political scene, and the Thai relationship with neighbouring countries, and ethnic minorities).

In closing, in an effort to ward off those whose defenses may have been riled up, I would like to make it known that I don't hate Thailand or Thai's and wish the county and it's people all the best.

[NutChusty]

If you understand why a Thai will lie in order to save face, you are beginning to understand.

I can assure you I'm not going to lie to save any ones face. If you base a relationship on lie's, then what type of relationship are you really in ? I would say not a very good one.

[Eromereorybig]

I can assure you I'm not going to lie to save any ones face. If you base a relationship on lie's, then what type of relationship are you really in ? I would say not a very good one.

I don't think you understand the concept of face, or you have misinterpreted my post.

What westerners would call a white lie ( in thai - a noble lie ) is done to avoid conflict or losing face. Seen as the best solution. Avoid seriousness.

These are not western attitudes. I am not saying I like it any more than you do. I am merely pointing out a different way of thinking between two peoples.

A true story: Person waiting for an appointment with a Thai in Bangkok. Waits half an hour, no show so rings on mobile. Says he is near Sukhumvit Soi xx in heavy traffic. Knowing the area, waits half an hour. No show, rings again. Traffic heavy, be with you in 10 minutes.

The guy was actually in Chiangmai and another Thai had to explain the "excuses" were to avoid the person getting upset.

You see many Thais think differently. No right or wrong - just different.

A Thai will rarely say no in a business situation. He would say maybe.

They have different concepts of honesty, permanence, ....

Just some thoughts, the topic is immense.

[Cvo1iRT0]

If one is ever to fit in with a Thai family, one will be tested for nam jai. However, success comes from knowing when to give from the heart and when to not be foolish. It would be unwise and disharmonious to draw a 'hard line' when it comes to giving. The best policy is to be apologetic and lie about why you cannot give in a particular instance. That way, everybody saves face and you still get to keep your money.

[cinggooft]

I will go out on a limb and say that is wrong, regardless of your culture. It's one thing to lie to cover up a schedule mistake; that can and does happen everywhere on the planet. But leading someone else to waste further time waiting for you is extremely inconsiderate and I can't believe anyone would consider that right behavior under any circumstances.

Telling a lie is the lesser of two evils. Losing face is a major issue and nobody wants that to happen.

The 'right' thing to do in a western society is the 'wrong' thing in a Thai society. As long as we view events through western-tinted glasses, we will never truly understand Thai culture.

[violetgorman]

I completely agree. Furthermore, the entire premise of this thread is highly distasteful. It is little wonder that none of our Thai members have decided to participate in yet another thoughtless and shallow portrayal of Thai people.

I agree - this has become distasteful, thoughtless and shallow

I've said all I wish to say, and each reader can judge for themselves the extent of wilful ignorance they have seen exhibited in Thailand, including amongst their personal relationships, the political scene, and relationships with neighbouring countries

[gennnniiikk]

If you are useing Stickmans as your bible to Thai relationships no wonder you are haveing such a hard time.
that is a totaly one sided forum geared toward expat males. great site if you like pattaya and have no respect for Thai women

I completely agree. Furthermore, the entire premise of this thread is highly distasteful. It is little wonder that none of our Thai members have decided to participate in yet another thoughtless and shallow portrayal of Thai people.

[violetgorman]

You can give up all of your self respect and the relationship will still not work. A successful relationship of any kind has to be two working together.

Agree - I should have said TRY to make the relationship work.
(also, one side might be able to prolong the relationship if they are prepared to give in more, but thats hardly the basis of a lasting, good relationship!).

[violetgorman]

My question would be, has your friend ever experienced western culture ? How much Thai culture have you experienced ? It would be easier to meet in the middle if both of you knew where the other is coming from.

See [link removed by Mod] for a good article on the wilful ignorance issue, or Google "How to be intimate with face".
Sorry about not being able to privide a link but I don't have those privileges as my post count is not high enough.

Basically I think it comes down to how much of your self respect you are prepared to give up in order to make the relationship work - that will be different for each person.