[violetgorman]

Thanks, PeaceRichard for some thoughtful comments.

My conclusion: I think only the individual person can undertake self reflection – no one else can do it for them - and they can only do it when they are ready (if ever).

In a personal relationship that might make things difficult, because if a person is not capable of self reflection, are they really capable of giving you real intimacy? (and I'm NOT talking about sex!)

[violetgorman]

HI

If you are useing Stickmans as your bible to Thai relationships no wonder you are haveing such a hard time.
that is a totaly one sided forum geared toward expat males. great site if you like pattaya
and have no respect for Thai women

I don't read that site, and only found the article by chance. To me it seems to portray a good understanding of the issue.

Did you read the article?
If you did read it, rather than another snide comment, please point out the inaccuracies.

If you didn't read it, then...................................

[violetgorman]

To the Mod: Did you get a chance to look at the link, just in case it might be useful to many readers of this site?

[RayFairhurst]

I said from the start I was looking for techniques to help someone overcome wilful (intentional) ignorance, as I saw the stubborn aversion to loss of face as an obstacle to a true intimate relationship (not just sex & work)

I won't dwell on the more difficult subject of how to raise a person's 'self-awareness' (referring to the ability to stand apart and examine our thought processes and how we 'see' ourselves). This topic includes your concern about being conscious of 'wllful ignorance'. Instead, I will treat this subject on a more shallow level and focus on how we might make our significant other admit more easily their mistakes, and thus bring them closer to changing.

One suggestion I can offer is to provide in your relationship an atmosphere of trust and acceptance. This means that the other person will feel that it is OK to admit mistakes, and that committing mistakes will not make them feel rejected or less loved. More importantly, it will not hurt their self-esteem.

My concept of 'losing face' is getting the self-esteem injured. There are persons who build formidable defenses to protect their self-esteem , sometimes resulting in brazen stubborness or unreasonableness.

In this case, it might be worthwhile to initiate sharing your own episodes of ignorance and flaws, preferably in a self-deprecatory manner. Apart from encouraging openness, this gesture will push the idea that it is OK to be imperfect. Hopefully, it will bring forth more authenticity from the other party.

[MipRippoomamn]

Basically I think it comes down to how much of your self respect you are prepared to give up in order to make the relationship work - that will be different for each person. You can give up all of your self respect and the relationship will still not work. A successful relationship of any kind has to be two working together.

[Eromereorybig]

From my original request:
"I am specifically interested in hearing from those Thai people who have managed to rise above the trait (through mindfulness), and become more open, honest & sharing and less defensive, when confronted with disagreements."

Anyone?

You have an interesting post and I can't understand why you are not getting responses, other than posters do not want to discuss ( because they are themselves defensive) which is of course your original point

[yWleIJm4]

...Thais are generally quite reluctant to engage in deep thought about what it means to be Thai. This is to do with Thai ideals and values as expressed by Buddhism. According to Buddhist belief, Less is More.

Buddhist belief encourages Thais not to think too deeply about things, if one thinks too deeply about something it inevitably leads to rebirth and renewed suffering. Now, we wouldn't wish that on anybody, would we?

As you've probably noticed Thais tend to lead their lives on the surface of things, while the Western world is busy burying itself in thought. Who's to say which is right and which is wrong?

This strikes me as rather strange from where I sit. I do not see a lot of thoughtfulness in California, and those who are thinking the hardest about how to live their lives tend to be those pursuing "new age" (Eastern-inspired) philosophies. Perhaps we can say that everyone who is not questioning (or at least open to questioning) what they were raised to believe is going to be somewhat (unconsciously) insensitive to people from different cultures. It probably transcends "face" or "rationalism" or other cultural constructs and is just the way humans are wired. I'm not sure what opens an individual's eyes to this habit of thought, but if they are not even aware of it, for sure they are not going to change.

[moredasers]

I was specifically interested in hearing from those Thai people who have managed to rise above the trait (through mindfulness), and become more open, honest & sharing and less defensive, when confronted with disagreements.

I think you got off on the wrong foot, really. By being negative towards Thai people.

Why would they want to 'rise above' this trait? Is it wrong?

You're are judging Thai culture to our Western standards.

I doubt very much you'll get a response from a Thai member, Thais are generally quite reluctant to engage in deep thought about what it means to be Thai. This is to do with Thai ideals and values as expressed by Buddhism. According to Buddhist belief, Less is More.

Buddhist belief encourages Thais not to think too deeply about things, if one thinks too deeply about something it inevitably leads to rebirth and renewed suffering. Now, we wouldn't wish that on anybody, would we?

As you've probably noticed Thais tend to lead their lives on the surface of things, while the Western world is busy burying itself in thought. Who's to say which is right and which is wrong?

My suggestion to you is to try and understand the reasons why your wife is like the way she is, and not try and change your wife's ways. Good luck!

[Eromereorybig]

I won't dwell on the more difficult subject of how to raise a person's 'self-awareness' or the ability to stand apart and examine our thought processes and how we 'see' ourselves. This topic includes your concern about being conscious of 'willful ignorance'. Instead, I will treat this subject on a more shallow level and focus on how we might make our significant other admit more easily their mistakes, and thus bring them closer to changing.

One suggestion I can offer is to provide in your relationship an atmosphere of trust and acceptance. This means that the other person will feel that it is OK to admit mistakes, and that committing mistakes will not make them feel rejected or less loved. More importantly, it will not hurt their self-esteem.

My concept of 'losing face' is getting the self-esteem injured. There are persons who build formidable defenses to protect their self-esteem , sometimes resulting to brazen stubborness or unreasonableness.

In this case, it might be worthwhile to initiate sharing your own episodes of ignorance and flaws, preferably in a self-deprecatory manner. Apart from encouraging openness, this gesture will push the idea that it is OK to be
imperfect. Hopefully, it will bring forth more authenticity from the other party.

Some very good points. And this is all we can do in dealing with some of these Thai concepts. The defences you talk of are ingrained in Thai thought but yes let's try to "reason" with a Thai. Not easy. You say " It will not hurt their self esteem" difficult to achieve this but yes we must try. "openness" - you make an excellent point from a western perspective, more difficult with a Thai. Their instinct is to walk away and avoid conflict or reasoning through a problem.

But I agree with most of your post. We must try.

[Eromereorybig]

I will go out on a limb and say that is wrong, regardless of your culture. It's one thing to lie to cover up a schedule mistake; that can and does happen everywhere on the planet. But leading someone else to waste further time waiting for you is extremely inconsiderate and I can't believe anyone would consider that right behavior under any circumstances.

---

Having said that, I suppose I will be on the lookout for it. If someone says they are on their way but in heavy traffic, perhaps I should ask them whether another day might be more convenient. That probably is the face-saving way to think about it.

Sorry you don't accept that but is is a true summary of events.

I know westerners don't think like that. To you and I it is "extreemly inconsiderate" but to a Thai it is not wrong to lie if it saves embarassment ( to either party)

Have you ever been in a Thai courtroom where everyone knows a person is lying including the judges, and the accused after listening and seeing the evidence still pleads not guilty. Even seeing a signature on a document he will just smile ( he is not being rude smiling it is a cover for embarassment) and take the sentence.

Thais have a sense that nothing is serious or permanent. Have you heard them say " Don't think too much" " It doesn't matter". It can be very exasperating.

I had a builder lay some concrete. He charged for 15 cms and just laid a skim (about 2cm.) I saw him do it. I stood there watching. He would not accept he had done it, said it was more than 15.

When a Thai pointed it out later, he still insisted it was 15. When we started to tell him to break it up and check all the builders legged it. They could not be caught in a lie,m apologise, and then put it right. They would lose face. Maybe difficult to undersatnd if you have not experienced it

Any other posters got examples where a deliberate lie was made for whatever reason. And how dealt with?