[Wr8dIAUk]

sorry about my thoughlessness using the word "farang" - however, I still cannot come up with anything better to mean non-Thai - and I am not sure it would be a compliment to say that I think both you guys Marie and Trangam are in many ways farang.
ok, I cannot explain my way out of this now

[Baromaro]

Briefly, the techniques of giving constructive criticism --with the intention of making the person improve--are anchored on the principle of leaving the other person's self respect intact, which in effect corresponds to the concept of 'saving face' in the Thailand, or in the East.

Agreed

Take for example the very basic guidline.

When you deliver critique, do it alone, not in front of others.

In many aspects we are less different from thais then we are led to believe.

I just read a guidebook that said "Dont touch unknown thais on the head.", you never see guidbooks that say "While in London feel free to touch unkown Londoners on the head"

[Wr8dIAUk]

if you have been living around here for a while, you certainly find your behaviour, habits and even personality have changed slightly - my questions are simple,
- how has living in Thailand changed you as a person? your priorities, your thinking?
- what is still very farang in your thinking or behaviour?
- what is Thai in you?
- what are the things you wish you could adopt, but you can't?
- what are the things you don't want to adopt, and you are determined to keep your farang ways?


I will think a little more about my own responses

[JennyStewarta]

The among friends there can be a lot of teasing about peoples' faults or foibles.

I think if you are interested in learning more about your shortcomings, your Thai friends will give you plenty of assistance - but in a caring way not a malicious way.

[ashleyjoseph]

- how has living in Thailand changed you as a person? your priorities, your thinking?

I think it changed me mostly because it was the first time I was away from home for such a long time. But Thailand specifically changed how I see other people: I think I respect them more, and am more aware of the 'face' concept, even though I'm not there anymore. And it showed me how hard people can work, e.g. Issaan farmers not going to school and working hard at home. It made me more grateful for what I have here.

- what is still very farang in your thinking or behaviour?

I talk very directly about things, at least with my friends. And if I did that in Thailand, that would create a huge mess with other people losing face...

- what is Thai in you?

My appreciation of good food. When I came back from Thailand, I never went anywhere without taking food with me! Actually I still do that!

- what are the things you wish you could adopt, but you can't?

A more relaxed view of things, more "maipenrai" and less hectic and stressed farang view of the world.

- what are the things you don't want to adopt, and you are determined to keep your farang ways?

Even though I appreciate and respect the face concept, and am very much aware of it most of the time, I still need "direct" conversations with my friends, without taboo topics. I had difficulties talking about my feelings when I was in Thailand, and the people I asked said they never did because it was too personal. That made me feel a bit isolated sometimes.
Plus I like to say I am very open towards new things, new adventures, food, lifestyles, etc. While I think many Thai people are not happy when things don't go the Thai way. I don't want to generalise too much, but I've seen that more in Thai people than I see it in Swiss people.

[SOgLak]

I can answer that. Yes "Khaek" is a correct and polite way of addressing people from the Indian sub-continent and that general region. It is a neutral term in the Thai language and if it has any negative connotations they are only those applied by bigots. I havent looked it up in the dictionary but I'm sure it will appear there.

[Yswxomvy]

if you have been living around here for a while, you certainly find your behaviour, habits and even personality have changed slightly - my questions are simple,
- how has living in Thailand changed you as a person? your priorities, your thinking?
- what is still very farang in your thinking or behaviour?
- what is Thai in you?
- what are the things you wish you could adopt, but you can't?
- what are the things you don't want to adopt, and you are determined to keep your farang ways?


I will think a little more about my own responses

Technically, I am not a farang. But as those who know me closely note (including the thread starter, Betti), I demonstrate some amount of farang orientation. (Actually, there is a reason for that.) Thus, she urges me to reply.

A Thai women's tendency that I have difficulty internalizing is their view about money. I have quoted in this forum a foreigner who had crystallized this orientation. I am quoting him again: "The root of the conflict lies in the 'money culture'. The Westerner thinks that a woman who truly loves him will not ask him for money. The Thai woman thinks that a man who truly loves her will show it with money."

I admit I have strong Western influence about this matter. I am in that stage where cognitively I am trying to understand it, but on the affective level my value system is rejecting the idea. It is just against my grain. Let us just say I am still working on accepting it on a full scale.

A related cocept, the sin sodt, has the same effect on me--especially when I hear how some families abuse this practice.

But thank God I am not a guy who will need to be bothered about this matter!

The practice that gets my admiration is how Thais take care of their old family members. Since many of the old folks do not have solid social security to fall back on, the family support system is much needed.

[SeftyJokipl]

No problem Betti. I really did not think of the farang point at all until I had to answer that specific question. Its sometimes useful to be in the grey zone!

[Retapleapse]

The issue of directness might be a matter of style. Nobody wants to have a serious accusatory conversation. But I've seen Thai people convey severe disapproval with their body language and facial expressions, and among friends there can be a lot of teasing about peoples' faults or foibles. This is a different way of communicating, and perhaps it doesn't seem as effective in getting the point across. But consider that many people in the West cannot "process" direct criticism anyway. They don't believe it (denial), they don't accept responsibility (blaming others), they minimize its significance (comparing with the accuser), and so on. Directness can lead to more psychological defensiveness; it can be less effective.

If you respect and care about a colleague or acquaintance, you need to communicate with them in a way that gets through to them. Whether it's blunt or roundabout, angry or tearful or jovial, shouldn't be decided by the expectations of the culture, but by what is going to work for the individuals involved. Well, that's my 2 cents, as a person who isn't good at taking hints.

[Yswxomvy]

Trangam,

Even your own M. Ghandi said, "They cannot take away our self respect if we do not give it to them."

[Arkadiyas]

Thanks for those comments...I would like to hear from Trangam on that though. I've never heard it in a neutral way... if it is meant to be neutral, it's still in an awkwardly hushed tone. I'd like to hear directly from someone for who it is applied and how they feel.

[Wr8dIAUk]

Billk, that's what I meant, and that's why it never really occurred to me that Marie and Trangam are not "farang".


- what are the things you wish you could adopt, but you can't?

I wish I were more relaxed. I often get the remark "you think too much". but then, if I don't think too much (=I don't worry, I don't doubt, I don't ask for advice), the same people get mad at me for not teaching their kids properly.

[Mjyzpzph]

ᢡ = kàek = [N] Indian, guest, visitor.

David

[Wr8dIAUk]

- what are the things you don't want to adopt, and you are determined to keep your farang ways?

this practice of never talking directly scares me. and even farang bosses do it! so, if our boss has a problem with my Canadian colleague, e.g. he is often late, he would approach our Thai boss, who would discuss with me and ask me to talk to him. why me? if it is really uncomfortable, I refuse. if not, we usually help out each other by talking about things. same if we want to go bottom up with a request - thus, approvals take weeks. the main problem with this practice is that things get lost in translation between languages and cultures, and it is really scary at times when you realise that there has been a huge misunderstanding. parents do the same, I am often the last to figure out that something really tiny and insignificant that could have been solved easily at the beginning has snowballed into something menacing.
sometimes I think we are living in two parallel universes without realising what the others are thinking and why. and this is even though most of my farang colleagues speak reasonably good Thai, have been living here for years, and have Thai families, so they are used to these situations!
I am in favour of direct talk, it can be tactful, I don't mean blunt and impolite. being a farang often gives a good excuse if you cut things short and make others wonder why. of course, the loops and extra laps can also be used for my advantage, and when I feel the chance, I do that too!

[Yswxomvy]

Billk, that's what I meant, and that's why it never really occurred to me that Marie and Trangam are not "farang".

No worries. You could also take 'farang' to mean a 'foreigner'. Then just make an adjustment here and there to make your reply fit.

[SeftyJokipl]

I have not stayed in Thailand for any great length but i still want to respond:

- how has living in Thailand changed you as a person? your priorities, your thinking?

I like the politeness & respectfulness that Thai people show in their daily life, even if maybe its an exterior sometimes. To maintain that is very nice practise and feeling. I really have a melting heart for very old Thai ladies - they are soooo Sweet and kind always and always working still.


- what is still very farang in your thinking or behaviour?

I am not sure I can consider myself farang. But I still cannot drink the lengths at which some Thai people can

- what is Thai in you?

My mai pen rai attitude, and much more.

- what are the things you wish you could adopt, but you can't?

Speak Thai. Be responsible and be a child almost at the same time at a click of a switch. Actually, I think I am or could be so, but this corporate world is really spinning me out of my personality!

- what are the things you don't want to adopt, and you are determined to keep your farang ways?

Too much social discipline ... you know the commitment to a never-ending family and relatives... I am running away from that in my own home... cannot handle it in city life. Suddenly, people pop up at my home. QUalification: They are from my native village and I or even my parents may have never met them... Its ok sometimes, but its hard to maintain this life now...

[SeftyJokipl]

Yes, I heard the word Kaek being mentioned but not spoken directly to me. In my understanding its not used in a very positive manner - but it could also got to do with the people who I end up hearing the word from? (possibly those who would use it in a neutral manner do not really use it in the face and one does not sense the positive side to it?). But you see, as an Indian I really do not care. Because, In India itself , almost every neighbouring community has a negative word for the other, because we have had to all cross each others path so often in times gone and we fight for limited resources. But that is hardly something one keeps in mind when most meet, mix and deal with each other. Thats life. Rarely such comments become activism and given a chance none want to really hate each other but it is just a social reflex. Do not know how to explain it otherwise. (except in some special cases) So, I grow up considering this a part of life.

For me, its about how one connects with the people I end up meeting directly - one by one and I feel almost everyone who I have cared to spend over 10 minutes has been very nice to me. And in that sense I have great experience in Thailand always. If we get too deep about how people think (statistically) of each other its hard to live... for the world is far from evolved and balanced in view, whatever exterior words we may chose to use. Most people use popular remarks and perceptions, without really thinking much or considering its implications and actually really do not mean to hurt. A few will, but most will not.

For instance, in India people in casual social talk will engage in so many 'popular' concepts about the west - without much thought and it could be negative. But most of them when next to a foreigner will be extremely eager to start a friendly chat.

Most people who are neutral to others are so because they are not sharing each others resources. Else, most people seem to react to the other if we are tested with hard times?

Of course, there are few insightful people who will not colour the other whether its hard times or good - but thats a hard level to reach for most of us?

So, I philosophise or maybe rationalise?


Note: Having said that I must mention that my opinion of Kaek is just a judgement on how Thai's saying it around me maybe using it as. However, I have never once come across anyone calling/taunting or provoking me with that word. Thats a major differnce from how I have seen some communities experiencing negativity (and that is not in Thailand) when in public places... So, at best I am aware of the sound of Kaek, and maybe wrongly, but definitely not conscious about it when I walk around the streets of Thailand!

[Arkadiyas]

Trangam, I'm curious as to your experiences with and feelings toward the word ᢡ .... Are you called a ᢡ ? I've only heard it used in a negative way, does it also have neutral connotations like farang?

[QxmFwtlam]

I’m feeling the pinch after a few years here. I have to adapt to the more simple ways of life. Simpler… as in work, eat, sleep as the major part of my life and to trim down on indulgence drastically.

Not all of us here are the lucky ones, working here on an expatriate pay I believe. In my former career, I could buy that iPhone, that Nikon or that Oakley without thinking twice. I drink up to 3 times a week. I could travel for that holiday as and when I wanted, easy on my pockets.

Now I live in Thailand and sacrificed my material desires. Drawing the Thai salary, I have to live the simple Thai way, drink the 100 Pipers instead of Chivas, travel on budget instead of splurging on luxurious holidays. I feel the pinch, ouch. My friends say I’m nuts, crazy old man come to suffer. But I am getting used to it, getting used to the pinch and weirdly, I’m Lovin It.

[Yswxomvy]

The issue of directness might be a matter of style. Nobody wants to have a serious accusatory conversation. But I've seen Thai people convey severe disapproval with their body language and facial expressions, and among friends there can be a lot of teasing about peoples' faults or foibles. This is a different way of communicating, and perhaps it doesn't seem as effective in getting the point across. But consider that many people in the West cannot "process" direct criticism anyway. They don't believe it (denial), they don't accept responsibility (blaming others), they minimize its significance (comparing with the accuser), and so on. Directness can lead to more psychological defensiveness; it can be less effective.

If you respect and care about a colleague or acquaintance, you need to communicate with them in a way that gets through to them. Whether it's blunt or roundabout, angry or tearful or jovial, shouldn't be decided by the expectations of the culture, but by what is going to work for the individuals involved. Well, that's my 2 cents, as a person who isn't good at taking hints.

I share your observation that bluntness can be sometimes harmful in that it can build defensiveness and that even in the West many cannot "process direct criticism". However, it is noteworthy that in the West, there have been attempts to address the ill effects of this approach through the proliferation of literature and training on Human Relations and Management where they teach "How to Give Negative Feedback".

I don't intend to go into the details of this but suffice it to say that the bone of contention is that because 'directness' can give the same effect as an assault, the person on the other end will likely become defensive, will build a wall around him, for self preservation purposes. Thus you may have great difficulty reaching him, or changing him. Remember that more often than not you wish to tell a person what's wrong with him with the hope to change him into something 'better' from your eyes. But if he is being defensive that will take you farther from your desire to change him. (There may be a few exceptions, though--like when you have full authority to fire him if he does not shape up. But let me skip that aspect.)

Briefly, the techniques of giving constructive criticism --with the intention of making the person improve--are anchored on the principle of leaving the other person's self respect intact, which in effect corresponds to the concept of 'saving face' in the Thailand, or in the East.