[55TRATTERENRY]

Redbird_Lefty got me thinking about schools. Pear started the primary question, "Do they teach equality in Thai schools?" This is not a direct yes or no. It is a memory of my school time that has remained with me so vividly, and I think it makes a good example of how "equality" is not taught as a subject material, but taught through a teacher's expectation.

It was the first of my two years in Daddarunee Girl's School, Chachoengsao, 1979.
I was in MS1, equivalent to Grade 7. A physics teacher was substituting our regular geometry teacher who was absent for a while. He had given us homework about the qualities of triangles and called for our homework notebooks. This physics teacher (who usually taught the senior classes) confronted my 7th grader classmates in a very strong way, that he could see from the handed in work that some people had been copying their homework rather than doing it themselves. He picked one girl and told her that if she pointed out who she copied from, he would spare hitting her (in those days, this was acceptable). She pointed someone. He kept asking the next girl with the same threat until there was an increasing number of girls standing up guilty of the crime of copying. I had given my notebook that morning to a friend to help her out because she didn't understand the lesson and therefore couldn't do the homework. It turned out that she had passed it on to many others. Seeing so many of my classmates, doomed for punishment, I started to feel really bad about letting my work be copied, so I stood up and told him that I was the source. Then he gave me this very nasty lecture about how I was doing more harm to my friends by feeling sorry for them and letting them copy my work than having them do their own work, etc, etc. I had never been criticized so harshly, it really hurt. Half way through his tirade, I was sobbing into my desk. He sent me out of the room, continued his class. After class, he had a talk with me (in a more gentle manner), and made sure I understood the harm of helping others the easy way.

Through my later years in school, there have been other episodes in other schools, (due to my father's work, we moved about every two years), where my classmates tried to do things the easy way. Being part of the class, I could not be totally innocent. Sometimes, the situation called for me to pass my work around to help others again, despite the risk of being found out and punished. I remember, an exam in Grade 11. The teacher stepped out of the room for a while, and there were small balls of paper flying around in so many directions, it was so hilarious. Even when she stepped back in we were all trying to contain our giggles. Later in university, I would occasionally hear announcements about such and such students being flunked, and even expelled for being caught cheating. Now some twenty years later, I listen to my son's stories about how the A-students in his class copy their work from textbooks, prepared notes, etc, and the teacher picking on students like him who don't behave in class, and does sloppy work, but actually tries to do his own stuff.

OK, so what does cheating in schools have to do with teaching of equality? Looking back, I understand now that that physics teacher upheld high moral standards for education. He probably expected all of his students to have the same ability to understand the relationships of angles if they only worked at it hard enough. He actually expected more out of us as a weak class than our regular math teacher who accepted lower than standard work. During that substitution period, I think, the class learnt more about angles and some other serious life lessons. For me? I took to heart the subtle subconscious message that equality meant leaving behind friends who couldn't take the opportunity to be as "equal". And yet I rebel against that lesson to this day, because through life I have seen how each person is so different from another and responds to similar situations differently. I see it most in the differences of my two children. Because they are so different, how could I treat them equally? What is equal for both could give one of them advantage over the other, put the other at a disadvantage, or even be a disadvantage for both of them.

[BuyCheapest]

Quote[/b] ]Everyone has an opportuinty, but I just think they should have an "equal" opportuinty.

Do not confuse the term "equal opportunity" with "equal outcome." Just because individuals are afforded the same opportunities, that does not quarantee that they will enjoy the same results.

Quote[/b] ]Example: Suppose I take two girls of the same race, age, height, wieght, etc. Now, suppose I give these two girls the same training, the same shoes and equipment, and then ask them to race each other in the 100 meter dash. Does my equal treatment of these two girls guarantee that they will both cross the finish line at the exact same time?

[Asianunta]

At heart, I'm for equal opportunity and equality like the next person but what is really disappointing is seeing cases where opportunity is provided but not taken.

I have seen/heard of destitute people who, for example, came off the boats of Viet Nam onto American soil whose children later became valedectorians in high school, and then excel later in life; likewise, I've seen people who were born and raised here in America drop out of school claiming that it is a total waste of time. Presumably, each had the same opportunities, yet the outcomes were vastly different.

My older sister told me the story of when she was a senior in high school taking calculus in the accelerated math program and being told by her peers on the girl's track team to take the regular math class instead because she projected an image of being a nerd. My sister was getting an opportunity to become more than just a clerical worker in later life and yet she was being advised to forego that by members of her own gender. You won't read about that roadblock to equal opportunity in the collective works of Bette Friedan.

I love this story--journalist David Broder asked the head of the Department of Neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins Medical School (perhaps the top med school in the US), how he, an African American, went from the poverty-stricken, inner city ghetto of Detroit to Johns Hopkins. The doctor said that when he was 12 years old, he was the dumbest student in his class (to the point where his classmates all called him "Dummy") and when his mother, who worked three jobs, saw all F's on his report card, she took the bold step of getting rid of the television. This forced him to go to the library to study and spend his free time. Soon thereafter, he became the best student in his class, etc., etc.

I think providing equal opportunity is essential. Stopping there though may not be enough. I've noticed that the key to seizing on that opportunity is a mentor, be it parent, teacher, whatever, who already possesses the smarts and/or work ethic to imprt to those less knowledgeable. It is difficult to blame a young person for failing to seize an opportunity when he or she has had no one imparting wisdom to him or her in the first place. Rich parents tend to already know the lay of the educational terrain before their child is even born, whereas poor parents, who themselves know little or nothing of the value of this knowledge and work ethic, cannot impart it to their children like the rich parents can to theirs. In the case of the Johns Hopkins doctor, he was extremely fortunate to have had a mother with a strong work ethic.

The concepts of equality and equal opportunity are easy to discuss in theory, but the devil is in the details.

[55TRATTERENRY]

Quote[/b] ]Globalwoman, are you like a consler at a school or someone that fixes other peoples problems? Or are you just super smart? ^_^

Ouch! (Winced) No, no, no. I wish I could fix my own problems. I'm just as smart as you are or will be one day, I'm just older. I like to read a lot. I'm not a professional writer,.. yet. (One day, I hope). I like to write in my private journals a lot. I have two boxes of these journals! And that's from only about 7 years of journal writing. Imagine, if I started as a teenager, I'd have like 70 boxes?

Quote[/b] ]The other day I knew clearly what I needed to seek, but today when you said people thought differently....I'm not so sure what I'm seeking.

I see you are a seeker. Seekers one day attain wisdom, what is needed is patience......Come to think of it maybe, you're not so different from visionchaser. After all, did you notice his chosen name, and his signature? My advice, if you want, is to "ao jai kao ma sai jai rao", take the other's person heart and put it in your heart, that's how we "kao jai", or understand. That will help you understand how other people think, then you have to think a lot about yourself and understand yourself. This all takes a lot of work, so patience. Nothing that time won't solve!

Quote[/b] ]Everyone has an opportunity, but I just think they should have an "equal" opportunity. I can't quite explain what I'm saying.

I understand. (Again? No, I'm not that smart! ) I used to think that way too (walked in your shoes). People who think that way are the ones who try to change the world for the better, like Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi. Very, very hard work and a lot of pain. But we are all that much better because of them. These people made right decisions at crucial moments that called for it. They mark our history. I'm more sort of patient and believe that the world has its inherent equalities, we just don't know how to see it and express it. So I don't try to go around changing the world, well, maybe, except my most personal world. Also I'm quite a coward with pain, can't take too much!

[Dertrioz]

If someone puts you in a "box" it is up to you if you want to stay in the "box" or get out of the "box".
I am happy to see pear and her mom talking about anything. It seems just with what I read there is a close bond to be able to do that.
The search is on. good luck pear. Don't give up the search.

[violetgorman]

globalwoman is indeed wise. I am a strong proponent of equal opportuinty. Whether and to what extent one avails oneself of one's opportunities is where the differences manifest. Do I think it is fair to introduce biases into systems that deprive others of equal opportunity? No, I do not. Do I think everyone has value? Yes, I do. Do I think everyone has the same ability? No, I do not. Do I think that is okay? Yes, I do.

I value differences. My wife is Thai and a Buddhist. I am an American and a Christian. We do not "should" on each other. That is to say, I do not tell her she "should" become a Christian, and she does not tell me that I "should" become a Buddhist. I do not tell her that she "should" eat food farang, and she does not tell me that I "should" eat food Thai. I do not tell her she "should" get a tan, and she does not tell me that I should stay out of the sun. As they say in Thailand, "up to you."

[55TRATTERENRY]

Dear Pear,

In our thai culture, "metta" is our highest value and ideal. I believe that it is higher than the questionable values of equality. "Metta" in Thai culture is not "taught" in schools. It is taught in life, through actions of those around us. We grow up encultured in metta and that is how we learn our values.

The cosmology of the Thai people is different from the West. We exist in a world where there is no clear distinction between the world of the seen(material) and the unseen(spirit). For that worldview, we are often mistaken for being superstitious. This world of interdependence which the Thai soul has nurtured through thousands of years sees power as symbolized in the concepts of "pradej" and "prakun". I apologize for not translating these two concepts and the word metta because the English concept of two opposing negative and positive forces is, quite frankly, a limiting term. "Pradej", while it can be enforcing, all powerful, putting fear in people, has both negative and positive qualities. "Prakun", our ultimate governing power is most beneficial yet has its own limiting aspects. Most of us want to cultivate "prakun", but many also choose to cultivat "pradej". "Pradej" is cultivated basically through metta, and other related values. Many also balance the two.

The reason why Thai culture is so fixed in trying to place people in an appropriate "rank" is due to this belief in the order of power. They want to know how to properly behave in respect to that power. As a child, he is naturally lower in ranking than an older person, and therefore "wai" an elder with a bowed head to show that polite respect. What has been most amazing for me was to discover that this order of power is not permanently fixed. It is fluid. With knowledge, with maturity, one can negotiate one's way upwards. Some people negotiate with connections or "sen". Others negotiate with the grosser, more material commodity of money. But we all can recognize a great, wise "senior" person when we meet him, and it has nothing at all to do with money. Look in your circle of associates, family, relatives, who is this person? He/She comes in many forms, many representations.

Without true understanding (please notice, not "truth"), many Thai people act out the social norm. They think, "I have more pradej or prakun than these others, therefore I deserve respect". Of course, they will be mistaken to be seen as looking down at others, or might even actually look down on others if they have a severely inflated ego. Please do not confuse this with class distinction. You might want to investigate how the word "class" is a feudal and marxist invention.

I think it is unfair to generalize that Thais look down on poorer people. If we truly thought that poor is not worthy of respect, why do we revere our monks who have no attachment to money? Why do we highly respect our poorly paid teachers? Why do we respect and make a hero out of a person like Bangkok ex-governor Chamlong Srimuang? Or renown activist in support of the slum people, Kru Duangprateep? I ask you to look upon the example of our king, is he a rich man with abundant bank assets? Are those assets truly his or belonging to the Thai people? Read the story of his father and mother. Did you know that his mother was an adopted orphan? Why did millions of Thais mourn her death in length when she died? Do you really think it was just because she was the King's mother?

I leave you these thoughts, and look forward to reading more of your posts. Let me reassure you, there is no offense taken. We all "endoo" and respect our young who wish to understand more.

[BundEnhamma]

I can not answer because I finished school for long time already. When I was in school we didn't have any "Teaching of Equality" as a direct subject. But as a developing country we develop this subtlely in other actions.

Also in Buddhism, Buddha teaching is to be kind(metta) to other no matter who they are. I would think that may be able to refer as "treat others well". (Buddha is from India which that time he came from the "Monarchy Rank". But he devoted himself to help guiding others.)

I'm not saying that there is not a "looking down to the poorer" problem in the country. It has happened long time ago and I think this is something that needs time to adjust the way of thinking. It is getting better from generation to generation.

As a Thai woman working in many countrys outside Thailand , I can tell you that this is not only problem in Thailand. It happen everywhere. Have a nice day.

[Knillagrarp]

Quote[/b] ]Why consider thoses differences as inequality?

Equal - 1. being the same as another in quantity, degree, value, number, or quality. 2. evenly proportioned or balanced. 3. uniform in operation or effect...
-- Random House Webster's Dictionary (3rd Edition)

When one considers the definition of equality, the fact that individuals differ on any number of physical, mental, and psychological dimensions is a clear manifestation of inequality.

Quote[/b] ]Do you think weak or poor person have less qualities than others? Possible they have other precious qualities than a rich and intelligent person do not possess.

Please do not confuse the fact of inequality with making value judgments about the relative worth of one over another. The value of differences is placed on them by individuals and societies. Different cultures and people value different attributes. That is just the way it is. Why is this reality so difficult to comprehend?

[55TRATTERENRY]

Redbird_Lefty, I liked your stories of your older sister and the John Hopkins doctor. I also agree on your point about the need for a mentor, or someone who will knock some sense into your head. Maybe equality in details is a devil because it is indeed an ideal, something to aim for but not necessarily achieved.

Pear, don't feel sad. Each person has a path to take, sometimes those are not paths of excellence, or goodness, but they all have a meaningful part to play in our reality. Feel empowered to take some meaningful action to make your chosen ideals a reality even to a small degree and be imaginative. (I smile at nearly all the beggars and homeless who cross my path, because I can't drop them all a coin, most of them seem to be happy to receive just that acknowledgement.)

The power of youth is the courage to do what your elders have not done before. That way we move closer to our ideals. The real world can never be perfect but because we have ideals the world changes for the better.

[Kausilwf]

Thanks for understanding us so well
That's right we feel and tell the things with different manners.
Sometime we hear only what we want to hear and express things with our own words without understand why people don't understand us.
Possible i prefer dreaming with my own idealist word than using logic and reason

[55TRATTERENRY]

Visionchaser:

Quote[/b] ]People are different in terms of their general mental ability, their attractiveness, their personality, their socio-economic status, etc.

Quote[/b] ]We classify and make judgments based on our own evaluations of another's individual characteristics. This is the way it is in every culture in the world.

Atalderic:

Quote[/b] ]Why consider thoses differences as inequality? Can we measure people on that in order to rank them?

I understand what visionchaser is trying to say, and that visionchaser is using a writing style of logic and reason to support what he thinks. I don't think visionchaser really equates differences with inequality. I think he is trying to explain the beauty of complexity and diversity without which we would be stagnant. I understand that altaderic and pear, as well as others here, are more or less saying the same thing. We just have problems with words we have chosen to use and the images they project, and then the reader has different emotional reactions to the image evoked. When we use certain words we may actually associate a totally different meaning to our images. Because behind each word is a complex unique mind of the person who is using those words, and so many diverse, msyterious, deep individuals' worlds we try to understand using common words which have their limits.

'Classify', 'evaluate', 'judge', 'rank', 'measure', 'inequality', all vocabularies of mathematics, logic and reason. They tend to project the perception of objects/aspects as seperate and relatively independent, and many times in competition and conflict with each other. Let's look at the example of a different vocabulary given earlier (one I hope that most of us can intuite a common understanding of), "pradej" and "prakun". Let me explain these terms further, they are terms based on emotional and subjective weighing of the perceiver, not using logic nor reason. Therefore, no fixed classification, but fluid movement. It's a world of relativity and interdependence. You feel, you don't reason on who is a wiseman and deserve your respect. A penniless, homeless drifter could be more wise than a rich banker.

Offside remark: I don't make heroes of the homeless in Toronto. I am appalled by that they have to stay out on the streets in the extreme weather in winter, but I can't help but admire their steadfast insistence in their rebellion against the system. In USA they might put these people in jail, in Canada they provide shelters for these people to find a warm bed, and few necessities, but paradoxically they choose to stay out. The police pick them up when it is below freezing and send them to warm places to stay, free to leave when the weather is better.

Quote[/b] ]You might think that it's better easy to write than applicate.

Why is it difficult to apply liberty and equality? Because maybe the environment makes it difficult, if you were surrounded by an environment that deprive liberty, such as in China, and some arab countries (BTW, I don't think any situation of these situations are absolute in terms of non-freedom), how do you practise liberty? Underground or as militants.

Quote[/b] ] Originally Posted by [b Quote[/b] ]But sometimes, dreaming about equality and participate a little to the pain of the poor give us hope that life can be better for all. It's already a positive point. It's those persons who can teach us first the definition of equality.

I hope I can meet that kind of person. I know that there is someone out there that is like this. Maybe oneday, I can become that person too and teach others as well. Thanks for bringing it up. Both of you are already these people, as are any others who took notice. We all are, in different ways. These qualities exist in all of us, just expressed in each, uniquely different ways, and with time they come out and brilliantly shine the way gems do when you look at them from different angles.

The problem with conversation on the internet is that it emphasizes only the words and can lead to misunderstanding which shouldn't have happened because in the end we are all so similar (or shall I say, "equal"). When we are conversing in a physical environment there are other information flows that mediate and cool down the conversation and make it enjoyable, entertaining, and fulfilling. I hope/wish for that this forum will foster friendships among people of diverse minds and views, that one day, far in the future, we will meet in one space (preferably Srinai school, BKK) and have a great time joking about all the discussions we had and laughing about how we imagined each other.

[Kausilwf]

Quote[/b] ]I believe in reality; that all people are different. People are different in terms of their general mental ability, their attractiveness, their personality, their socio-economic status, etc.

Why consider thoses differences as inequality? Can we measure people on that in order to rank them?
Do you think weak or poor person have less qualities than others? Possible they have other precious qualities than a rich and intelligent person do not possess.
Possible a trisomic person possess qualities that we would like to have more.
Sensibility for example. And a poor person can give more hospitality than a rich one.
Yes if we measure the persons on their general mental ability, their attractiveness, their socio-economic status, then we should never find the sense of equality.

I remember the slogan of my country: LIBERTY EQUALITY FRATERNITY.
It's curious how people are aware of what should guide them but have difficulties to make in application their ideas.

You might think that it's better easy to write than applicate.

[nabsgood]

A real test of treating people equally is when you live in a middle class neighborhood where people of a poorer class are starting to move in. Given that your home is likely your biggest investment and you moved in that home years before expecting to sell it at a nice profit (say, to help finance your children's education after they move out), do you stay to uphold your principle of equality to the new neighbors or do you move to preserve your home's sell value? The sad truth is that even many liberal-minded people have chosen to move out when faced with this situation.

Pear, can you see why the real world can get in the way of achieving the goal of equality? And hopefully you now see the difference between the views of the idealists and the realists.

[Kausilwf]

Equality is not a myth it's an utopie.
Because human being think as an idividuality. He think and react only by interest.
That's why people want distinguish themself from the others.
People are not all santa who give their life for the others without thinking about their life.
But sometime, dreaming about equality and participate a little to the pain of the poor give us hope that life can be better for all. It's already a positive point. It's those persons who can teach us first the definition of equality.

[violetgorman]

Quote[/b] ] I do not have a definition, but I am seeking the truth.

If you do not have a definition, how will you know it when you find it. You cast doubt on the veracity of my words, suggesting that they were inconsistent with "truth." I was just wondering how you could do so without some standard against which to weigh my words.

Quote[/b] ]Again it is not a crime to be poor in America.

I already made it clear that I am not referring to crime in the literal sense. It is clear to me that you have never been pennyless (or even just dirt poor) in America. If you had, you would understand my point all too well.

Quote[/b] ]I'M TELLING YOU!!!

Raising your voice and insisting that I take your words at face value is hardly a way to support your argument. Try understanding my point of view first, then explain to me (with supporting evidence when possible) how my argument is flawed.

Quote[/b] ]Anyways.......since you don't believe in equality...what do you believe in then?

I believe in reality; that all people are different. People are different in terms of their general mental ability, their attractiveness, their personality, their socio-economic status, etc. We classify and make judgments based on our own evaluations of another's individual characteristics. This is the way it is in every culture in the world. Some cultures organize the attributes of others in different ways, focusing on different features as being either desireable or undesireable. The fact remains that differences exist and are part of our cognitive evaluations of others.

[Borrinas]

There is nothing wrong with being poor here in America. My family was poor for awhile and no one cared. There are many places for homeless people to live. Some live in shelters and some on the streets. Where I used to live there were homeless people outside of every grocery store and they weren't hasseled. Thay lived there every day and night for as long as I can remember. We were fortunate to have my grandparents pay for rent since I lived in Orange County, California and rent is astronomically high. A lot of people here prefer poor people to ich people because they are usually nicer. The times when we have a problem with the poor is when they're poor by choice.

[EjPWyPm4]

"I never met a man I didn't like." Quote from . what's his name again?

To me this should be true. Meeting new people in an unbiased way. Maybe the dislike might come later.

[HRCPda7R]

Quote[/b] ]You have told me the diffinition, but have you told me the truth?

What is truth? You obviously have some definition in mind. My version is based on personal experiences, as well as firsthand observatons.

Quote[/b] ]Are you talking about robbery?

I do not mean a crime in the literal sense. My point was that, in America, people are treated like criminals just for being poor. This is not the case in Thailand. Social status will be a fact of life no matter where you go.

Quote[/b] ]I disagree with you that equality is a myth.

You are more than welcome to disagree. I would only like you to consider why we list height, weight, hair color, eye color, etc. on personal identification forms. Why do we administer examinations in educational settings? How do we describe other people who are not present? What characteristics do we use in such descriptions? If we were all equal, it would be pretty difficult to make distinctions. If you mean politically equal, I would suggest that political equality is also a myth. I mentioned the "iron law of oligarchy." Why is there a name for something that does not exist? Why do we often classify people according to socio-economic status (SES)?

Equality is indeed a myth.

To my knowledge, they do not teach "equality" in Thailand schools. I think it is good not to confuse Thai children with nonsense.

[violetgorman]

Why do you seem to think that this is a uniquely Thai phenomenon? You live in the USA. Although they "teach" equality in the schools and via other propaganda media, equality certainly does not exist in the States. It is practically a crime to be poor in America. At least in Thailand you have a right to be poor. There are class distinctions in every culture in the world. Social scientistists are well aware of stereotyping and in-group biases against members of the out-group. These biases occur in all groups quite naturally. In many cases they are adaptive and promote the survival of ingroup members. There is also "the iron law of oligarchy," which secures power for members of the ruling class.