[Drysnyaty]

it has never ever occurred to me to describe women as subservient.... but this is a big city. nobody wipes their shoes into women if that's what you expected. but they do the housework besides working full time, if that's what you call an achievement or emancipation. they get 3 months off work when they give birth. you might say wow! that's great! women are not chained to the crib any more. and I say it's a shame many of my colleagues have to leave their babies with cheap Burmese immigrant childminders or send them to nursery, or leave them with grandparents. many rural kids are raised by grandparents while parents are away at work, just because Thailand has been assigned the role of providing cheap labour and cheap goods for the rest of the world. at construction sites and rice paddies, you see women working alongside men doing hard manual labour. but you know what, they take it with dignity. they don't seem to lose heart. they always have a smile for you. and it just breaks your heart to see how much they work. even educated people with degrees take second jobs to support their families, their kids, their parents back home. subservient? whatever you choose to name it. it's all in your eyes.
as for myself, I have been treated with respect most of the time, no bullying, no nasty remarks, I feel safe walking in the street at night. people consider and treat me a human being, which is much more than what I was used to back home. I'm not talking about being treated as a woman, I think the human side is much more important than all that crap about women's rights and stuff. sorry.
it's hard to tell how you and Thailand would "click". come for an extended holiday and see for yourself. I know it from experience that even if I know the people who turn up here to visit me, I cannot predict what they will like and what they will hate. and I don't know you. come and check it out, that's what I can say.

[Snweyuag]

As a Thai lady I think there is nothing to worry about being "subservient" for all foreigner lady who need to relocate in Thailand.

About Thai ladies being "subservient", I think because old Thai culture is like this, all perfect Thai ladies in the past actually took care of their husbands as the king of house and treated her children as they were forever young which was her pleasure in order to “to make the house more homely”.

Nowadays Thailand has changed, Thai ladies are mostly not subservient and don’t treat their husbands as their king as in the past but lot’s of ladies including educated ladies with good jobs still take care and support their family, as we think this is big responsibility of being a wife and mom . I think there is nothing inferior about Thai ladies being "subservient" if she does this because she loves her family, and this does not mean she doesn’t know anything about life, with no choices or without social awareness.

[kylsq0Ln]

Nice rant Betti. You said a lot of things I wouldn't due to lack of experience. Though you may have overinterpreted the original post your points are worth repeating...

[DownloadMan]

Anatta, I think you have said it exactly as it is, and is sure how I see it happening, But some people like to look at the downside of any situation and see if they can not stir up trouble and controversy to seem more HIP to why things happen.

OH,I SEE THINGS YOU DON'T

[Drysnyaty]

well I know a bunch of farang women who have lived in Thailand for 3-4 years and intend to stay long-term, some are married to Thais, some single, some came together with their husbands (and kids). I just thought my response would not be relevant because these people, like myself, are all in their 20s or 30s, and far from retiring.

[DownloadMan]

ok, as for the "women's stuff crap", let me explain. here we had a lady who called all Asian women "subservient" without knowing anything about their life, just because she suspects they are obviously different from Western / US life models and ideals. if that's the kind of attitude someone carries around, well, then the idea behind is nothing short of crap. the idea as she interprets it, that is. the idea that makes her feel superior, and feel pity for people living in other self-sustaining cultures without an attempt to figure out how that culture works. I would accept someone passing judgement after gaining some insights, though.
.

Well it appears that the lady asked a question, Has not posted an opinion.

I don't think that the info I am looking for has to do so much with age (I am 60, but young at heart, and very active), as I want to know just how women are treated in general, and especially farang women. I am retired from law enforcement, very independent, and don't know how I would do in a culture where all women are expected to be subservient, but I really don't know how it is there. Can you enlighten me? Now thats the way I see it anyhow.

[kylsq0Ln]

does that mean I should repeat something?

You can repeat anything you like.

But seriously, I fully agree with what you and Anatta say, and I'm pleased that you said it. It has more credibility coming from females who live in Thailand than from me.

[advabHixavoip]

Betti, I agree with you completely. I think people have misunderstood what gender inequity issues are. It's certainly not asking a woman to be disingenuous to her opinions, values, and dreams.

[advabHixavoip]

Swimmer... you might check out this thread that had some anecdotes:
http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9055 and there are some Farang Women on these threads, but you're right ....most westerners in Thailand are men.

[Leaters]

ok, as for the "women's stuff crap", let me explain. here we had a lady who called all Asian women "subservient" without knowing anything about their life, just because she suspects they are obviously different from Western / US life models and ideals. if that's the kind of attitude someone carries around, well, then the idea behind is nothing short of crap. the idea as she interprets it, that is. the idea that makes her feel superior, and feel pity for people living in other self-sustaining cultures without an attempt to figure out how that culture works. I would accept someone passing judgement after gaining some insights, though.
I don't think anyone who has been to Thailand for a while at least would call women subservient. there are anomalies, there are paths of exploitation (show me a place without these controversies and then I withdraw my comments I promise), but women in general are not oppressed and are not forced to take a back seat all the time. they just don't find it demeaning to run a household, raise kids, god forbid cook a good meal for their families - besides working really hard.
and I would say crap to anyone any day who says to a full-time mother and wife that she should readjust her priorities and "realise herself" instead. sometimes realising youself comes through trying to realise the full potential of those around you, be it your students, kids, husband. Thais don't lead isolated, solitary lives, they keep connected to their families, support their kids, support their parents, help them any way they can. and there is nothing inferior about that. it's not subservience. it's realising you are not alone, that you are a link in the web.

Betti

Very interesting, here is the comment from my friend:

This is an excellent comment and one I totally agree with. As a sociologist and researcher into gender relationships for over 20 years, and a regular traveller to Thailand and the Far East, I too have seen into the subtleties of Thai culture. But it has taken me years to do so and there is still much I need to learn. Thai culture, especially its gendered dynamics, is certainly not what it appears on the surface and we do a great injustice to the women of Thailand if we simplistically presume them to be all oppressed and subjected to a patriarchal, misogynistic culture.

The issue is really one of choice. Does the woman have the cultural and social capital necessary in order to make 'free' choices in her life? Does she have the economic basis and family support to choose whether or not to have a family, be a housewife, go to university, have children or stay childless? If she is condemned to a life of poverty, sexual oppression, male abuse, and the worse constraints of traditional gender values, then she has little choice. In which case we cannot say she is free to choose. Her choices are serverly limited, if pretty much non-existent. However, at the same time, this same woman may well not feel subected to oppression, she may likely feel that her sense of being feminine, a woman, is reinforced precisely because it is bound up in this cultural and economic straightjacket.

At this point we can see that the only way out for such women, indeed all women, is education. With education, especially post16 education, comes freedom to think and act 'outside the box'. Education ushers in emancipation, or at least its possibility. This is the way forward for Thai women, as it is for women everywhere.

[Drysnyaty]

Mike, thank you for that comment. couldn't have been more elegantly and scientifically put.

it is also difficult to generalise because there are huge gaps between the lifestyles, chances and priorities of chic Bangkok girls shopping at Paragon, and the poor hilltribe girls coming to Chiang Mai to work as maids, and the working women (teachers, nurses, clerks, shop assistants) in small towns, and the almost illiterate peasant women in Isaan.....

interestingly, I immediately asked myself the question whether I as a European, Eastern European woman have had the chance to make decisions about the kind of life I want. and I would say no, I didn't. absurdly, it has been the excess freedom that has pushed me into second-best choices at best, and it keeps breaking my heart, no matter how much I love Thailand. but I guess none of us humans will ever have complete freedom of choice, and even if we had, we would not know what to do with it. anyway, I've been lucky to have the right language skills and skin colour, which ultimately gave me the chance to be here, make a living, contribute to the community where I live. it's not about choices.

[advabHixavoip]

Swimmer: Thanks for your post, Betti. Wow, I finally found a farang woman to reply! It was beginning to look bleak, but the advice in the 5 previous posts by men was all well taken. Well, I'm a woman, too. Sorry I didn't make that clear in my first post. I do not live in Thailand now, so Betti (and others here) is your best source of current info. I did, though, live in Thailand for many years.... in both Bangkok and a rural village in the South. There is certainly a difference of experience between men and women in Thailand. At first, I really fought that. As an American teenager (when I first lived in Thailand) I was really put off by gender expectations. Who's to tell me I couldn't straddle the motorbike and ride home with my male friends (as opposed to riding side saddle with other women)? But as I grew to understand Thailand and understand myself more, I really like the differences. I feel I'm looked out for, I'm given extra thought.... okay, as I write, I think that sounds a bit hokey, so I'll stop.

My job here in the US is to educate people about the "women's rights crap" that has been referred to in this thread. It certainly exsists...the need for equal rights, etc. However, that's a global issue...it's not something that then disallows kindess and a positive quality of life....and those are both things you will definitely find in Thailand -- man or woman.

There are a lot of Farang Women living in Thailand. Certainly not as many as the men, but they exist, live, love, enjoy all that is Thailand. You'll meet people and you'll find community.