[Yswxomvy]

Steve,
I wish I had read your post before I wrote mine; I could have addressed it! ( It took time for me to complete it, I was just doing it in between office tasks.)

[Mjyzpzph]

There is also the aspect of 'face' in the Western world but over there we just call it by other words.

We call it 'face' in Farangland too; only last evening I was watching the news on the TV about yesterdays chaos in France caused by the train drivers. The newscaster actually said that the French Rail Union "won't back down on their demands because the don't want to be seen to lose 'face'".

David

[Yswxomvy]

I have spent quite a lot of the last four years in Thailand. Whilst here and back in the U.K., I have done quite a lot of research into various aspects of Thai culture and psychology. I understand that here the main drive is toward social harmony and there are many social ‘mechanisms’ that are practiced to facilitate this.
I understand the concept of ‘face’ as practiced in Japan, where it is largely based on factors such as dignity, personal honour and integrity. But in Thailand this seems a whole different ball game. As my GF says “in Thailand, the truth can get you killed”. However when I question her about how having and maintaining ‘face’ (whether based on fact or as seems more the case, based on fiction) is engendered into the Thai individual, because in doing so condones many practices that are viewed in the West as negatives, under the general headings of dishonesty, shirking responsibility for one’s actions etc., I get little or no response. I am not surprised as explaining might well bring about a loss of face for her.
I am therefore interested in any information as to how permissibility for false ‘face’ is socialised into the Thai individual, as this seems to allow the individual to be and be known to be a quite a loathsome, irresponsible, sort of person yet also allows them to feel aggrieved if their character is in any way questioned. Most perplexing.

You have raised a thought-provoking issue. Like you I am also groping for a clue to this puzzle. I am merely a 'student' of Thai culture, and far from being an authority on the subject. However, my GUESS is that this has something to do with the way we prioritize our values within a value system. As you may know, sometimes our values come in conflict with one another, but the one on a higher level in our hierarchy of values will reign supreme.

A simplified example would be, if providing for the family is more important than being honest, when pushed to certain limits a father would justify scamming others to be able to earn a living and feed his family.

You mentioned about a very strong Thai value-'maintaning face' - which is not based on honesty, personal honor, and integrity-contrary to how it is thought of in Japan and in other cultures. I think Thais have their own practices to save face. (Maybe you can help me identify them.) And if these means could sometimes run counter to honesty, personal honor, and integrity, I think it is probably because Thais give more premium to saving face within the Thai context than to these abovementioned virtues.

I hope I did not confuse you more. Haha.

[Dominick Yo]

I think foreigners really blow-up the image of 'face', 'lose face' and 'save face' etc...
In fact, they always use this expression for a situation much more than a Thai would. There is also the aspect of 'face' in the Western world but over there we just call it by other words.

Sometimes, the Thais even use the word 'face' just to scam money out of foreigners. A great example of this is when it's time to get married and the lady says "Unless you pay a dowry of 500,000 baht, my family will lose face". Huh, what a joke!

Anyway, thinking about it, i may write up a decent blog on this 'face' thing.

[Wr8dIAUk]

sorry, slightly off topic here: the only time I have found this face messup really annoying is when it is all centred around kids' education and skills. like everyone, including Thai teachers and parents pretending everything is perfect, the teachers do the kid's classwork, the parents do the homework, and the kid doesn't know anything, and cannot fail a grade.... sometimes I cannot really deal with this emotionally.

[largonioulurI]

I have found Thai's very rarely tell the truth, specialy woman, when it comes to love, they all say they love you, even if they tell there best friends they don't like you.

[furious1]

I have spent quite a lot of the last four years in Thailand. Whilst here and back in the U.K., I have done quite a lot of research into various aspects of Thai culture and psychology. I understand that here the main drive is toward social harmony and there are many social ‘mechanisms’ that are practiced to facilitate this.
I understand the concept of ‘face’ as practiced in Japan, where it is largely based on factors such as dignity, personal honour and integrity. But in Thailand this seems a whole different ball game. As my GF says “in Thailand, the truth can get you killed”. However when I question her about how having and maintaining ‘face’ (whether based on fact or as seems more the case, based on fiction) is engendered into the Thai individual, because in doing so condones many practices that are viewed in the West as negatives, under the general headings of dishonesty, shirking responsibility for one’s actions etc., I get little or no response. I am not surprised as explaining might well bring about a loss of face for her.
I am therefore interested in any information as to how permissibility for false ‘face’ is socialised into the Thai individual, as this seems to allow the individual to be and be known to be a quite a loathsome, irresponsible, sort of person yet also allows them to feel aggrieved if their character is in any way questioned. Most perplexing.

[Yswxomvy]

No not more confused at all, thanks for your comments. Try reading "Cross Cultural Communication; A Topical Paper by Mark Durene (www.apts.edu/jam/7-1/MDurene.pdf).Its from the Journal of Asian Missions. Although it is slanted toward Christian Missionary work (not surprisingly) it is quite informative concerning various aspects of 'face' in Thailand.

Grayem,

Thanks for the link. The paper presented a clear overview of the three categories of losing face in Thai context, namely: 1) sia naa, 2) khaay naa, an 3) raksaa naa.

I cannot help linking this topic to the concept of sin sodt which is often not understood well by non-Thais, that include me. Now I have started to understand a little bit why a perceived small sin sodt can bring loss of face to a Thai family!

I have read that some parents of Thai brides have to withdraw from their savings a large amount and make it appear that it's sin sodt given to them by their farang son-in-law. What a farce, you might say!

But probably it is khaay naa which is in operation here. "This is the face one must protect at all cost. It defines who the person is. It is the essence of their dignity and worth."

It must be a loss of face to be relating with people beneath your actual or projected economic or social status.

What do you think?

[furious1]

"The truth can get you killed". Yes, of course. Not to over simply...It's a kind of freedon. That is live and let live. A thai, born in thailand and having gone thru the mores and culture can do whatever they pretty much choose that is well, wrong. However. Anyone who knows of these wrong things, by western standards, cannot speak of it. To anyone. The act is never to be mentioned in front, behind or crosswise to them. Honor is spoken of but it is a phoney honor. Loathsome, irresponsible, quite true. Seems like at times that some thai just don't give a .....

To be honest lenss I don't have too much trouble tucked away in a Sa Kaeo Village most people have got to know me as the crazy falang. They all know I don't have a heap of cash and like most Thai folk I go my own way about things, which seems to sit well with them. My Thai isn't brilliant but I know how to say pom hen, pom poot. Khun mai chop arai pom poot, ko tot. Khun mee mai choc dee na Khrap. So far at least no-one has given me a moment's trouble.

[furious1]

You have raised a thought-provoking issue. Like you I am also groping for a clue to this puzzle. I am merely a 'student' of Thai culture, and far from being an authority on the subject. However, my GUESS is that this has something to do with the way we prioritize our values within a value system. As you may know, sometimes our values come in conflict with one another, but the one on a higher level in our hierarchy of values will reign supreme.

A simplified example would be, if providing for the family is more important than being honest, when pushed to certain limits a father would justify scamming others to be able to earn a living and feed his family.

You mentioned about a very strong Thai value-'maintaning face' - which is not based on honesty, personal honor, and integrity-contrary to how it is thought of in Japan and in other cultures. I think Thais have their own practices to save face. (Maybe you can help me identify them.) And if these means could sometimes run counter to honesty, personal honor, and integrity, I think it is probably because Thais give more premium to saving face within the Thai context than to these abovementioned virtues.

I hope I did not confuse you more. Haha.

No not more confused at all, thanks for your comments. Try reading "Cross Cultural Communication; A Topical Paper by Mark Durene (www.apts.edu/jam/7-1/MDurene.pdf).Its from the Journal of Asian Missions. Although it is slanted toward Christian Missionary work (not surprisingly) it is quite informative concerning various aspects of 'face' in Thailand.

[Fvmfrctt]

"The truth can get you killed". Yes, of course. Not to over simply...It's a kind of freedon. That is live and let live. A thai, born in thailand and having gone thru the mores and culture can do whatever they pretty much choose that is well, wrong. However. Anyone who knows of these wrong things, by western standards, cannot speak of it. To anyone. The act is never to be mentioned in front, behind or crosswise to them. Honor is spoken of but it is a phoney honor. Loathsome, irresponsible, quite true. Seems like at times that some thai just don't give a .....

[Fvmfrctt]

Loss of face or loss of place. This face stuff is all in the mind. After any comment or action there is still a face on the other person. Let it go folks..!! Ya still got your face.