[eskimosik]

And she can not just put it down and the monk pick it up as they will never pick up anything that is not theirs, so it must be put in his hand.

Is this an official tenet, that monks don't pick anything up that isn't theirs? It makes me wonder about the folk history behind the ¼éÒ»èÒ ceremonies, where the laypeople left nice new yellow cloths in the jungle for the hermit monks who lived there, and the monks would come and take them. I really should read into this stuff more...

[DownloadMan]

I see it as, If it is in the forest away from everything, then it has no owner,
If it is money laying on a table, then it pobly belongs to someone.

I think that you have to but your mind on the "be reasonable setting" when dealing with people and how they think.

[Cnbaapuy]

FiP, Sorry you're having difficulties with missionaries. A pair of nice Jehova's Witness women knocked on my door this morning, but they were very polite and left promptly when I said I wasn't interested in their magazine. A lot less aggressive than they used to be here.

Actually, I was in some ways grateful for the "argument". I found myself making some reasonably polite comments, but realised that compared to the American Monk I probably sounded really argumentative... It was particularly interesting because he was American so I could see how much being a monk had affected the way he behaved (not that I thnk that American's behave badly ). Later I was asking him about whether he'd seen some partcular movies I'd watched recently that addressed some aspects of Buddhism and he explained that he really wasn't supposed to do anything "entertaining", but could sometimes justify watching a movie if it was educational.

As I said, as I understand it, it's all about letting go of worldly pleasures and being very stable and calm. One of the young Thai men who was a monk for a couple of weeks said that he found the remaining calm aspect very difficult, whereas most seem to adapt to not eating after midday reasonably well...

I actually feel rather fourtunate to be able to interact with the Thai monks over here. In Thailand I was scared of doing something totally embarassing, so I avoided event talking to monks. But since I know the monks here, and some of them speak quite good English, I can ask them various inane questions. For example, I asked them about the eyebrow shaving and the consensus of those present was that only Thai monks shave eyebrows and they started doing it some time ago when the Burmese were trying to infiltrate by posing as monks. I'm not sure if that's historically accurate, but it makes a good story...

[Cnbaapuy]

Is this an official tenet, that monks don't pick anything up that isn't theirs?

Hmm, I think you need to rephrase that. Monks are not supposed to own anything, I think. Perhaps "don't pick up anything that isn't given"?

I'm sure someone will be along to point us to a definitive list but here is something to read:
http://www.thaibuddhist.com/227_precepts.html
http://www.thai-blogs.com/index.php?...&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

[!!Aaroncheg]

I think monks can only own their robes, the bowl, a needle, razor, and that's about it. but in reality, they have ID cards, bank accounts, mobile phones, books, cameras, not to mention of course toothbrushes and stuff like that. they are not supposed to own money but they do pay bus and taxi fares and also tuition fees. it's not uncommon to see novice monks in internet cafes, in Pantrip plaza looking at counterfeit dvds, or buying themselves coke at 7-eleven in the afternoon. not to mention watching the football world cup :-) life in the concrete jungle. of course I'm sure it doesn't work the same in rural areas. and I'm sure they are much harder on monks than on novices.

[DownloadMan]

I think that they will do what ever is necessary to maintain life in these times, just as they did in earlier times and will continue to do in the future, just like all customs and traditions, they change unnoticed to fit in with the modern way, you can not expect things to stay exactly as they were at the time of christ, when Buddhism was already a well functioning assembly of people.

[Cnbaapuy]

Yes, it is very adaptable of course but I was responding to Rikker's question about the principle

One of the NZ men who comes to our Temple here, and is very serious about Buddhism talked to me last week about staying in a Wat in Bangkok, where most of the monks were University students and so the place was quite empty during the day...

[actioliGalm]

'Gor' (Panrit) wrote up a funny story as his life as a monk. In fact, it read just like his life as a monk didn't differ much to the life of most lay people.

It seems that a lot of foreigners are much more serious about the pure tachings of Buddhism than Thais and Thai monks. 'Bucky' picked on a bit i wrote in my latest blog about a monk i was chatting to lately who said he may have a 'bet' on the World Cup football. Now, to most foreigners interested in Buddhism, a monk gambling etc... would seem absurd, but if you ask the Thais they'll probably tell you that such things are common here.

Once, when i was at a famous temple in the south of Thailand and i asked one of the monks where the Farang monk was to which he replied "He flew up to Bangkok for a seminar but he'll be catching his flight back tomorrow morning". Great, i found out that monks get a discount when flying with Thai Airways!

[DownloadMan]

Mike, if someone wants to stay at a Temple/Wat and really does not have one in mind for a reason, the one I reccomended to a fella that wants to come here to be a monk for a month is a fine Wat with a very good Prior who speaks english and it is a beautiful quiet mountain Wat, the pics of it are in the last page of my fotki site if you are interested in looking.

Yes Steve, I think outsiders are more interested in the strict living than the monks, anyway the ones I know are not so stiff in the neck as folks think.

[eskimosik]

I think monks can only own their robes, the bowl, a needle, razor, and that's about it. but in reality, they have ID cards, bank accounts, mobile phones, books, cameras, not to mention of course toothbrushes and stuff like that. they are not supposed to own money but they do pay bus and taxi fares and also tuition fees. it's not uncommon to see novice monks in internet cafes, in Pantrip plaza looking at counterfeit dvds, or buying themselves coke at 7-eleven in the afternoon. not to mention watching the football world cup :-) life in the concrete jungle. of course I'm sure it doesn't work the same in rural areas. and I'm sure they are much harder on monks than on novices.

Right. Thanks to Mike for the links above. I realize this isn't really meant to be the main thrust of the thread. Asking Thais what rules monks are supposed to follow is kind of like asking many Christians what the ten commandments are... times 227. Ha. Anyhow, I've heard the 227 number, as well as a bunch of other numbers, and of course there are the ศีลห้า that "everyone" is supposed to follow, but the casual monks rarely even do.

At the root of a lot of it is the ingrained precept in Thais that one must never call a monk on his behavior, no matter if it's breaking the most basic of rules. So one's adherence to the rules is totally self-initiated and self-governed as far as the general public is concerned. Not sure how the prior or superior monks deal with things, especially in young novices who may or may not be willing participants.

And if you're a monk, apparently you can't even be prosecuted by law, you can only be kicked out of the monkhood. It really makes me wonder if it will always continue this way, or what will happen when more and more people get the idea to ordain and rob a bank, or ordain and murder their cheating ex-lover... but I suppose social ostracision can have a pretty powerful effect too, assuming that actually happens to people who do terrible things in the monkhood and get kicked out.

It's interesting to think about, and I agree that farangs who ordain tend to be more serious about it, because there's more of a social sacrifice involved. One thing I've learned about religion in general is that where more sacrifice is required, and where the adherent willingly makes it, the dedication to the tenets are deeper and more sincere. And as a farang declaring one's intentions to ordain as a Buddhist monk and follow all of the included tenets, it's probably about as normal and palatable to former friends and relatives as growing a third arm on your forehead and announcing your plans to build a rhinocerous colony on the moon..

I read Phra Farang by Phra Peter Pannapadipo a few years ago, and found his take on things very interesting, for anyone who hasn't read it. You can Google him to find his books.

[boltondd]

OK, well, with the disclaimer that I am no expert, let me expand on my understanding. Perhaps this will cause some more comment............

Thanks Mike, a bit more of the fog gone

[Cnbaapuy]

Well, we did get some interesting comments. And, clearly, there is a difference between theory and practice in many cases. But you can have a slightly more positive take on it than Steve's. Disregarding the cases where what is happening is simply wrong (which will happen in any organisation), one could say that most Thai's just want to just get on with practicing Buddhism it as part of their lives. It's not that they don't take it seriously, they just don't feel the need to discuss it, they feel they know what they are doing. As Steve says, it's often Farang who obsess about minute details. Sometimes, I suspect, missing the whole point of what it's about...

[actioliGalm]

Just to comment on what 'Rikker' wrote.

If a monk has broken the law and is caught by the police, then he will be immediately de-robed and handed over for prosecution.

In fact, it's the same with ....say the army. The police can not arrest a soldier while he is wearing his army outfit.

Even though Thailand holds monks with deepest respect, the media will take any opportunity to portray monks in a bad-light, especially in regards to selling drugs etc.... Most 'Dos and Don'ts' about Thailand state that you shouldn't say anything bad about the monarchy and religion. Well, the one about the monarchy i won't argue with, but you will find that it is pretty common in Thailand for Thais to complain about 'some' monks.

One of my best friends in Suphanburi is a policeman. His name even made the the local Thai Rath newspaper a few months back when he arrested a couple of monks for dealing in methamphetamine. I have tried to talk about 'good moral' temples in Thailand but he has very little in the way of 'good'.....to say about any temple. He reckons every temple in Thailand has corrupt monks who break monkhood regulations by sleeping with woman etc.... I wanted to argue with him but him being a policeman, he seems to know a great deal about what goes on behind temple gates.

I spoke to him about the famous meditation monastery in Suphanburi i did a meditation retreat at last year. He said that even there, there was naughty activity.

From what i have heard, the police get a lot of reports about 'naughty' monks, but what the public forgets is that it isn't the police's job to investigate monks who are breaking the precepts. It is the temple's.

[JoesBro]

Sadly, putting on a saffron robe does not automatically change a bad mans character for the better or mean the wearer has saint-like attributes.
Tourists particularly should be made aware of this. Steve's mention of monks being arrested for dealing in "meth" reminded me of the British girl murdered for her money a few years ago, having been lured to a cave to see some Buddha images by a monk who was also a meth addict. Sadly senior monks also are not exempt from such abuses - there have been several cases of gifts of land etc to the Wats being embezzled for the use and profit of themselves or their family .
As Steve says, the conduct of some monks has long been subject to criticism -10 years to my knowledge alone - and the Sangha has been under pressure to reform as to vetting potential monks and disciplining existing ones.To date this seems to be a protracted, and most unproductive process.

[eskimosik]

This has turned into quite the interesting discussion. Re Steve's reply, I haven't read up on Thai law, so I'm only speaking on hearsay from Thais, but I was told that monks aren't prosecuted, only disrobed. But you say they're turned over for prosecution after disrobement? Are they subject to the full force of the law if it's a crime committed while a monk?

And I agree, the media seems to love exposing monks. Reform would be a good thing, I believe. Help recoup the good name of the Sangha which has suffered some buffeting in the public estimation. So far you'll never see such outing of bad behavior with the royal family. Perhaps the day will come, given the undercurrent of dislike toward the Crown Prince that I've heard expressed by some Thais behind closed doors, and how they like to gossip about his checkered past. Or perhaps they will be willing to forgive and accept him upon his accession. Here's to hoping there's no civil war when that time comes.

[Cnbaapuy]

Thanks Steve for the interesting post. Perhaps what we need to remember is that, like the abuse of boys by Catholic Priests (which is an on-going issue in NZ and Australia) the wrongdoings of a minority are eagerly seized upon...

At least, one hopes that it's a small minority in both cases (Buddhist and Catholic).

[In fact, I seem to remember that the Christian woman I mentioned a few posts ago at one point went off on a tangent about abuse by Cathoic priests. I guess she thought the Buddhists should fix that as well..]