[ChrisGoldstein]

I really do not think it would have been to smart an idea for Thailand to have told Japan that it couldn't build a railroad here if they wanted to anyway,non-aggression treaty or not.
and if it was really ever colonized, it must have been the Brits, that seems where most of the resources went and they do drive on the wrong side of the road and hold their forks in the wrong hand.5555

[vladekad]

I would rather not be taking the chance either. It's not anything like the type of government Syria, The Congo, Iran, Burma, or even Laos have. I mean how harsh is life really? Perhaps the protesting people should speak with their neighbors and see what mis-treatment truly is.

No offense to you Guava, I say the same thing to anyone protesting anything. There is always worse things in life. Especially when protesting politics! I mean really I do wonder if any of those people standing around you have any idea what life is really like in Burma or Laos??!!

Edited: Betti I assure you I am not trying to lay blame on anyone for anything. I am sternly trying to again make a point that the prideful and arrogant statment that "we have never been colonized" is just ridiculous. Those graves are over half a century old and it really no longer matters who was to blame back then. All governments from that time era have gone through significant changes and all have improved since then. It was not a blame game for me.

[ZwHRoTTn]

Guava, these are really interesting experiences, thanks for sharing them with us. If nothing else, you got some unique memories, a nice change from the boring "I-went-to-Thailand-and-saw-the-Grand Palace" routine. :/

Glad you got back safely! I saw in TV that these Sondhi-initiated demonstrations can turn out to be quite violent, actually. One time, even the head agitator himself fled the yellow-shirt crowd, after the anti-Thaksin frenzy got out of control at the PM's house. (I believe it was on Children's day). Lucky you didn't get swept in THAT crowd!

Despite the possible dangers of getting caught in the political fluctuation of a developing country, I don't see any reason why foreigners shouldn't take part of shaping the country they chose to live in. Everyone even vaguely familiar with Thailand's history can name foreigners who, once given political power, had a profound positive impact on the country. Below is just one example.

I assume that informed readers here are familiar with the name Constantine Phaulkon. "The Greek", as he was called, reached Thai shores as an assistant gunner on a merchant ship in seventeenth-century Siam. He then became "First Counsellor", Prime Minister, essentially King Narai's right-hand man, the second-most influential man in Thailand. A foreigner.

Siam survived the rough colonial times; it's an unfortunate and false assumption that she did it all by herself, without the help of outsiders. Foreigners like Phaulkon played an essential role in preserving Thailand's independence, helping her navigate safely away from the greed of powerful Western nations. Without such people, Thailand wouldn't be what it is today.

If King Narai, a man who King Rama IV himself called "the most distinguished of all Siamese rulers", deemed foreigners to be suitable to take up the most powerful political role in Siam, who are the rest of us to say otherwise? We can safely presume that a supreme ruler of Thailand knows her needs better than some Farang outsiders.

[kasandrasikl]

igotnos posted would interfere with my retirement comfort maybe Im missing something, but retirement visa is only available at age 50 plus???

[vladekad]

many farang do care about Thai politics..... I am not alone in having family living in Thailand while being stuck in euorope for work reasons...

You totally misunderstood my point. Sure there are thousands that do care. I even follow politics very closely in Thailand. But for the farang that live all around you or me they are much more concerned with the price of petro, calling Tony Blair or George Bush names, or even just material pursuits. No matter their interests, when you mention Thai government, most will reply with 'They speak Chinese in Taiwan don't they?'

By a sheer measurement of numbers I meant that outside of Thailand nobody is interested in Thai politics. Ask the world over which leader of Iraq is going through a trial, most of the world would at least know a name. Ask the world who Thaksin is and only a very small percentage would know who he is by name.

By retirement comfort, I never mentioned a retirement visa, I am too young for that. I simply meant my overall comfort, and FaranginPhetch is exactly on the same line of thought with me on this one and he summed it up very nicely in his last paragraph...

"Too many farang at a political rally will surely bring down more stuff than most of us need or want and will do no real good"

That stuff it will bring down is what I am scared of.

[ZwHRoTTn]

I have found it to be a very interesting and stimulating discussion that has given me some new areas/ideas for research. Thanks guys, gotta love these forums I feel the same way, Guava; it's pretty cool when we can learn something new about our favorite subject. And it came in a quite unexpected way too!

Khun Don, thanks for the links. This information puts the Thai resistance movement in new light.

Or they could teach that the myth that they have never been controlled by an outside country is just that-- a myth. Can't see that happening anytime soon, iGotNoTime. In Thailand, national pride defies logical reasoning, as it was demonstrated so many times before. Just recall the Ramkamhaeng-controversy. The two scientists were subjected to a witch-hunt - almost literally. And there are many other things that one cannot even write about. 'Honest education' seems to be an utopian wish in this context.


Thai History 101

After succesfully refuting the notion that Thailand somehow managed to get through colonial times all by herself, allow me to dispel yet another false myth in the same venue. Namely, the notion that participating in the politics of the country is somehow exclusive to those with Royal invitation; an activity which simple 'guests of the kingdom' should stay away from. As you'll see below, a simple check on basic historical facts easily dispels this myth.

I left off the story of Constantine Phaulkon when the young man arrived to Siam as a simple deckhand. What distinguished him from the majority of foreigners at that time is that he had a knack for languages and quickly mastered Siamese. Later he gained a small fortune and was able to invest in a trading boat of his own. However, for all that, he would've remained a mere guest worker, were it not for an incident that put him at odds with the Siamese authorities. Yes, that's right!

You see, Phaukon worked for a commanding officer of the East India Company, the major English trading partner of Siam at that time. A rebellion broke out in the south: Songkhla rose up against the Kingdom (familiar situation). This officer saw it as a golden opportunity to profit from the uprising by secretly sending arms and other supplies to the rebels. He assigned this task to Phaulkon. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), a storm broke out that sank the smuggler's boat. Before the destruction, however, Phaulkon and his crew threw his contraband overboard.

This commotion was witnessed by locals on the shore. Authorities were notified, and the shipwrecked crew was promptly captured. The governor himself went down to investigate the matter. However, Phaulkon was able to talk himself out of trouble - using native Siamese tongue! He managed to impress not only the Siamese governor, but also his foreign boss, who promptly pushed Phaulkon into the service of the Siamese foreign ministry, to save himself from suspicion and to further his personal interest. From here on, the rest is history.

Despite his initial status as a simple guest of the Kingdom, Phaulkon played the political game, and doing so, he managed to obtain the trust of the most influential power figures of Siam. Being at odds with the establishment didn't hinder him the slightest way - in fact, it was a necessity. Without that incident, he would likely have lived and died in the shadow of the East India Company.

Many things can be concluded from this little historical piece - not the least of which is that getting the facts straight before writing them down in a public debate is the best way to avoid making an embarrassment out of one's self.

[ChrisGoldstein]

Yea, That and being more or less a friend under Japan rule during the second world war is a form of colonization I would think..

But I just saw on the news where toxin sold SHINN com.corp. and his poor little daughter that had to work in Mc Donalds last year came out with 400 mil. baht, and his son made 600 mil baht on the sale,,so I guess she won't have to work at Micky Dee no more.

but from what I hear, now he won't have to pay taxes on it..

[verybigf]

LOL that always makes me laugh. Most Americans don't know that we actually at war with Thailand during WWII. After Pearl Harbor, Thailand was instructed by Japan to declare war on the US and they did. Their embassy in Washington DC was simply afraid to make the statement public, and before anyone realized it Hiroshima and Nagasaki were devastated.

Hey, they guys working on the bomb were smart, but it was almost four years after Pearl Harbour!

I really should check the timeline, but my impression was that within a month or so after Pearl Harbour the Japanese had occupied most of SE Asia. Apart from the technicality (?) of the war declaration, it's not clear to me what the Thai government did that was very different from, say, the French government during German occupation.

I'm slightly puzzled by some of the talk here about what constitutes colonization. To me there appears to be a substantial difference between the British Empire running the "pink bits on the map", like India or Malaya (or New Zealand!) and "close relations" with Thailand.

I don't really want to get into a discussion about modern "multinational colonization" except to say that it applies also to "developed" countries such as my own.

[vladekad]

A co-worker moved up here from Miami just about a year ago and she said that in Miami you can not even get a job flipping burgers unless you speak fluent spanish. No gas station, fast food or any other jobs unless you can speak it. So yeah I would have to agree your comment about limiting opportunities to anyone outside their network.

But back on the topic, how does that situation not fit into the definition given second for the colonization? I don't see how it is any different.

[tretcheenia]

There was a Free Thai Resistance Movement, supplied and trained by the USA, which, among many other things saved the lives of many POW's by smuggling medical equipment etc into the camps.
Many of the senior Thai army officers actively collaborated with the Japanese, and were prominent in the repressive military dictatorships that followed WWII.

[exschke]

the paragraph I found about building the death railway says 16,000 allied prisoners of war died and an estimated 90,000 to 100,000 Thais, Burmese and Malaysian labourers who were also forced to work in the area.

and gorilla is still guerilla. I mean I'm not that obsessed with spelling, but this one is just something worth getting right. it's not about some silly-looking noisy monkeys in the jungle.

thank you for the links Khun Don.

[exschke]

gorilla war? that beats Paul's spelling

I don't know much about Thai history, so, to what extent were Thais victims of this occupation during WW2? or did they benefit from it overall?? did the people collaborate in any way? did the politicians and leaders collaborate or they were just trying to maintain a balance by accepting things on the facade? did Thai economy support the Japanese war machine? how did it work in everyday life? - as far as I know, Thai labourers died in the dozens of thousands working as slaves building the death railway for instance.

[ChrisGoldstein]

Belgium, Poland and Austria colonised by Germany during WW2? I'm not a historian and normally I don't take definitions very seriously..""

They were being over ran and partitioned by Germany long before, about 1200, in that general time if my memory ain't to far gone.
Poland was being taken small bits at a time by the Tutonic knights, who were German and Germany, Austria and Russia ended up with Poland split 3 ways with very little left about 17??, not sure of the dates without reading a book I have on the history of Poland.
Also was overran by the Tatars in the 13 century, Sweden at a later date. Lots of folks warred with Poland,Hungary, even the ottoman turks.

It really is of no consequence about Thailand being colonised, but the truth is just that.,

[vladekad]

And the Thai fought with the Viet for awhile until the French left.

Consider me learned! I never knew that! I thought I had all the dirt. 55555

[vladekad]

I don't really want to get into a discussion about modern "multinational colonization" except to say that it applies also to "developed" countries such as my own.

Yes it does and even my country has been overtaken by this rulership. But away from that and back to your question on my reasoning. Correct it is not much different from the French during the German occupation. However the difference is the French have nothing to hide and do not deny that they were taken by the third reich. The difference however is that Thailand denies that they were ever colonized. They may not have been invaded, but their country was not always their own even through modern history such as Japan and WWII.

Colonization, my point all along, does not have to mean that the name of country changes and it's people change. It does not mean that there will be thousands of immigrants moving in either. You may call it close relations, but relations so close that one obeys the other constitutes colonization. That does not even include the more modern concept of colonization. After all which concept would be easier for the Thai's to digest?

• Thailand used slave labor of allied forces to build a bridge for the Japanese, killing thousands upon thousands in the cruel and unusual treatment of the allied prisoners of war. Thailand should have been held responsible for her actions.
• Or simply, Thailand was colonized by Japan during the war and Japan treated the POW's so badly that some died when they were forced into slave labor with terrible conditions and lack of human compassion.

Because in reality the Japanese at the time had quite a reputation for their treatment of slaves. What happened between Konkuita and Kanchanaburi was actually very commonplace treatment for slaves of Japan. I wouldn't think that Thailand would want the reputation that Japan held. Just because there were no maps produced saying that it was a Japanese territory, does not mean it was not given orders from Japan, and those orders followed, thus as the definition above says: Colonization - the act or process of establishing control over a country or area by a more powerful and often distant country.

[ChrisGoldstein]

I am somewhat interested in Thai politics and do not want the Thai people to take to much of a screwing as I now live here too.
But I do not think it right for a "Guest" of a country to be raising heil and making a fool of himself if he doesn't have a vote.
And I do think that if a "Guest" made enough noise that he would surely be shipped out in a hurry, as to my thinking, would be the correct thing to do.

My philosophy IF YOU FIND YOURSELF IN A SITUATION THAT YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE,,THEN GET OUT.

Kinda like my neighbors,,they think it ain't right for me to keep my dog in my yard, behind a chain link yard fence,,they think she should be running the streets and dodging cars and covered with mange and barking all night,,but I think it ain't none of their business..

[ChrisGoldstein]

I do have my own ideas on politics in Thailand and same as anyone, I do not agree with some of them.

But even tho I do live here and my wife and I do own property and my wife is a gov't employee, we can not say much about what we think,,it would not be healthy for her and it is not my place to say and do much as I am considered a GUEST here, altho as a guest, I must pay my own way and do things the gov't way to be able to stay here..

This country is considered a democratic form of gov't, but not as free as the gov't in the USA where illegal as well as legal residents can raise a bunch of XXXX about how the things are done.

Too many farang at a political rally will surely bring down more stuff than most of us need or want and will do no real good as we are not allowed to vote, and thats where democratic problems are supposed to be taken care of,At the polling places and ballot boxes,, rallys just raise the public awareness of such necessities.

[ChrisGoldstein]

But with only a 7th grade edu. I am bound to make some mistakes, but with the context I thought most would be able to figure out the meaning,,truly sorry.

Here is all I could find about the numbers of deaths and it didn't go so far as to list the number of Thai. But I didn't know that so many Thai were in the resistance movement. The only ones I have ever heard from about it were Lahu hill people..

The living and working conditions on the railway were horrific. About 25% of the POW workers died because of overworking, malnutrition and diseases like cholera, malaria and dysentery. The death rate of the Asian workers was even higher; the number who died is unknown, as the Japanese did not count them.

Several memorials were built on the Thai side after the war. Directly at the bridge is a memorial plaque, and a historic locomotive is on display as well. Another memorial built by the Australians is at the Hellfire Pass, a landcut which cost most lives of all. The main POW cemetery is about 1 kilometre north of the city Kanchanaburi. 6,982 POW were buried there, mostly British, Dutch, Australian and American. A smaller cemetery a bit further outside city is Chong Kai with 1,750 graves. Both are maintained by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

The construction of the Death Railway was only one of many major war crimes committed by the Japan during the course of its wars in Asia. It is regarded as a major event in the Asian Holocaust, during which over 15 million Chinese, Korean, Filippino, Indonesian, Burmese, Indochinese civilians, Pacific Islanders and Allied POWs were killed.

[TainuibeFaimb]

I make a distinction between wartime occupation and colonization. Although the Germans, Italians, and Japanese occupied many countries during the war, they reverted back after the war ended. Vietnam was a French colony and, after the war, the French wanted to reclaim their former colony. This effort met with strong resistance and now Vietnam again belongs to the Vietnamese people. To me, this is the real distinction; ownership versus occupation.

[TainuibeFaimb]

...Latin people, now over 60% of the city of Miami Florida colonizing Florida USA? LOL I'd call it a bloodless coup. They are taking over the place through insistance on speaking a "foreign" language and closing opportunities to people outside their ethnic network. I live here and experience it first-hand, but that is another issue entirely.

Surely they are using Miami's resources, many of them with no right to be there legally. This is what really burns my aXX! I had to fill out an affidavit of support in order for my fiancee to get a visa to come to the U.S., but any Cuban who sets foot on the beach has an instant right to stay. What really ticks me off is when I see someone paying for their groceries with a federal foodstamp card, especially when they have a gold American Express card or gold Sears Mastercard in their wallet. If we ever needed foodstamps, I would have to pay the government back under the terms of the affidavit. Sorry, am I rambling?