[sesWaipunsaws]

Jeez mate,
Playing up in Patpong when full of the grog in youger days was bad enough for me without getting involved in the country's politics.

[TainuibeFaimb]

I assume that informed readers here are familiar with the difference between a Royal invitation and interfering without any official invitation. No matter how long one resides in the Kingdom, unless one applies for and receives Thai nationality, one is still merely a guest.

[vladekad]

LOL that always makes me laugh. Most Americans don't know that we actually at war with Thailand during WWII. After Pearl Harbor, Thailand was instructed by Japan to declare war on the US and they did. Their embassy in Washington DC was simply afraid to make the statement public, and before anyone realized it Hiroshima and Nagasaki were devastated.

I am sure that after seeing what happened in Japan that ambassador was grateful he had kept his mouth shut and disobeyed his superiors. It would surely have to be considered colonization to some degree. The definition I gave above certainly falls into line with what happened in the 1940's, Japan gave an order and Thailand complied. That is a rulership from a far nation > colonization.

No matter if the language and taxes were or were not forced upon them. Even the close ties to the British 130 years ago would have to be considered borderline I would think.

[ChrisGoldstein]

China was occupied [The Rape Of Nanking was occupation], Burma was occupied, The Lahu and other hill tribes did carry on a gorilla war against the Japanese.
Thailand was a willing participant in WW2.

Which was really the smart thing to do, but none the less, thats what happened.

[kasandrasikl]

Too many farang at a political rally will surely bring down more stuff than most of us need or want and will do no real good I dont actually recall seeing any other farang at the rally although there may have been some. As I stated in my OP I had not planned on becoming involved and for the most part I agree with the points raised by FaranginPhetch, having said that I feel pleased that I had the opportunity and experience.

[RotsLoado]

Umm the word "scared " came up , I think, twice by gotno. That just gotme thinking about governments and communities where people do disappear in the middle of the night. The power of the spoken word or being in the wrong place at the wrong moment of time can change your life forever.
BTW , maybe it has something to do about the term LAND OF SMILES.

[TainuibeFaimb]

My personal opinion is that, as guests in the kingdom, it is impolite at best to interfere in the internal politics of Thailand. Having avoided colonization and outright domination by western states, I applaud the ability of Thais to manage their own future.

[ChrisGoldstein]

Maybe you could get in tight with who ever is backing the unrest in the south and eventually end up rich and powerful,, But then again, you could end up in prison or even worse,,Dead..

Not worth it to me..

[vladekad]

No comment.

You are braver than I. I am certain being part of something like this, no matter how much I would enjoy it, would interfere with my retirement comfort. The pictures I am anxious to see though. I discuss Thai politics with the students here, but am scared to do or say anything in Thailand. Besides the farang have enough of a reputation for never being satisfied, I wouldn't prove it further true by protesting and complaining about a government that is not mine.

The situation is different outside Thailand though. Outside Thailand farang don't know or care about Thai government. I am curious about how many people were involved in the protest? What was the average age? Male to female ratio? Social class? I mean middle class, or low class? Just curious and probably details that will be on your website soon enough. If so I can check there if you prefer.

[vladekad]

Could that make Richard the Brit Ringleader responsible for all?!! There are many definitions of the term, I will admit to that. But if we choose a definition such as the above who is to say what is to be considered the limits?

A map stating that it is a territory?
A police force enforcing unwanted rules?
Taxation that previously didn't exsist?

In all reality and by that definition, the world is being colonized by the Chinese because of their vast resources for manufacturing. They exploit or use American chemicals (colonizing the USA), use German engineers (colonizing Germany), use Mexican labor (colonizing Mexico). Or what about mass immigration (legal or not), are not the Latin people, now over 60% of the city of Miami Florida colonizing Florida USA? Surely they are using Miami's resources, many of them with no right to be there legally.

Or even in Australia, Paul mentions that there is a huge influx of Asian's (or maybe he said Arabic?) would not that be considered colonization? Or does there need to be something in writing? If so, that means that nobody has ever colonized the United States, because we don't have anything in writing? What about the Chinese that moved to Thailand, or the Burmese in the hill tribes? I mean they have very large, closely knit and closed communities, why is that not considered colonization? Because they never overthrew The Kingdom?

Not being argumentative, just asking for you all to share your viewpoints because this is where I am confused by the definitions. I am not saying I am right, but I am simply saying I have some decent points that seem to contradict some of the views. Too my own points have contradictions in some areas going to other way. Maybe we need to invent a new word?

I like the dog story Faranginphetch, very American and very funny. Betti too I do agree that exploit should be the wording used for the definition. God knows the Europeans exploited the hell out of the native Americans before killing them off and calling themselves the Americans.

[ZwHRoTTn]

LOL, I'm not going to do that, obviously. I'm pretty sure that Phaulkon didn't risk his skin with the hopes of becoming Siam's prime minister either. I'm merely using a historical example to point out that Thai politics has place not only for Thai citizens but for foreigners as well - simple guests included.

[vladekad]

Guava I bet that made it feel even more strange that there were not many other farangs there if any. Thta would be kinda cool, just the idea that you may have been the only farang there, and the location of that being the case is what makes it even seem kinda cool to me.

FaranginPhetch that was specifically what I was talking about, being asked to leave or not even asked, just being put on the list without me knowing it. Imagine going for a simple visa renewal and being detained and asked to leave the kingdom never to return. Do they need a reason? Not at all. So why would I press my limits, especially in the sensitive political realm? It is far easier to use the anonymous nature of the internet for some things in my opinion. Safer anyway.

I am not one to be critical of Thailand as a whole. Maybe the politics, but certainly not the history. I think SiamJai gave a hidden reply to the statement by Vision. Very cryptic! LOL

I don't agree about the concept of Thailand never being colonized though. Maybe the French have never colonized, or the British have never colonized her, but consider the definition of colonization.

Colonization - the act or process of establishing control over a country or area by a more powerful and often distant country.

Pizza Hut, McDonald's, KFC, Orange Mobile, hell even the conept of the malls and materialism. Materialism and the 'need it now' attitude have colonized Thailand and the epidemic is rampant through out all of her major cities and tourist areas. So to say they have stood firm in avoiding being conquered by outside countries and their ways of life is to be in complete denial of how off-track Thailand has become in pursuit of happiness, wealth and the sense of 'keeping ahead of the Jones'.

[vladekad]

I have found it to be a very interesting and stimulating discussion that has given me some new areas/ideas for research. Thanks guys, gotta love these forums

Me too! Always more great things to study and learn.

Betti, I laughed when you first pointed out the spelling, that was the same image that was in my head when I seen it. I was actually thinking of apes with camoflage vests, green paint on their faces, a ribbon of ammunition across their chests, holding guns and wearing dark sunglasses. Pretty imaginitive eh? As far as the numbers, others please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but the point was of the 16,000 that died- they were all slaves and prisoners that were being forced to do this work. and of the 16,000 that died most were POW's. There may have been a collective number of up to 100,000 Thai's involved in the construction, but that number is not the number that was being forced to work as slaves.

What is taught in Thai schools? Is that a joke? None of this is taught in Thai schools. Never a full story surely anyway. It all goes back to what I was saying before. For an honest instruction on the matter the school would have two choices or versions to teach.

• They could teach that they had never been colonized or controlled by any outside country, thus putting the Thai government into the spotlight of blame for the thousands who died in the slave labor of the railway due to the harsh conditions and terribly cruel inhumane treatment.

• Or they could teach that the myth that they have never been controlled by an outside country is just that-- a myth. Truthfully telling how during WWII Japan had a very heavy hand and Thailand had no say on the matter, nor on what Japan did within her borders during that time.

But Thailand wants to claim both sides of these stories, not admitting to being at all responsible for the lives lost in the slave camps. Yet at the same time they want to continue claiming that Thailand has never taken commands from any outside country. Can't have both and call it honest education, yet nobody claimed they get an honest education in Thailand. They learn what the government wants them to learn, much the way elementary school textbooks are laid out in any other country. There is alway an agenda.

[dittygari]

I personally don't care what the Thai Government is doing, that to me is not my business, so long as it does not interfere with my life, even though like every one I have both negative and positive opinions to different Thai policies. I support every ones democratic right to protest, so long as it is none violent, so I believe you did the right thing for your self, whether or not it is good or bad polices is not my concern.

[tretcheenia]

Dictionary definitions.
Colonis(z)e: "To settle in a country, usually an underdeveloped one, remote from one's own, and develop its agricultural and other resources."

Occupy: "To take and keep possession of, to hold, as by military forces in war"

Given these definitions I would submit that Japan occupied Thailand, and thus suggest the statement, "we have never been coloniz(s)ed", "prideful and arrogant", or otherwise, is correct.

A matter of semantics, perhaps, but important in this case.

[tretcheenia]

A co-worker moved up here from Miami just about a year ago and she said that in Miami you can not even get a job flipping burgers unless you speak fluent spanish. No gas station, fast food or any other jobs unless you can speak it. So yeah I would have to agree your comment about limiting opportunities to anyone outside their network.

But back on the topic, how does that situation not fit into the definition given second for the colonization? I don't see how it is any different.

(Colonis(z)e: "To settle in a country, usually an underdeveloped one, remote from one's own, and develop its agricultural and other resources.")

As far as I am aware, Miami was already developed before this relatively recent influx of Spanish speakers -I would say that is the difference.

[exschke]

no, I didn't mean you play any blame game iGotNoTime, but any truth-picking can very easily lead to that. imagine they need to acknowledge the existence of graves and explain what got them there. it is just very difficult to account for a group of Thai people being responsible (in a way)for the death of other Thais, it is hard to draw a line between fact and interpretation, bad guys and good guys, discussing history and pointing fingers. it can easily go the wrong way.

thank you KhunDon, that's exactly what I was going to look up for my next post. however, colonisation up here sounds like some nice philantropic idea, doesn't it? :-) developing should be cut out and substituted with exploiting.

[ChrisGoldstein]

Anyway, the way he wrote that letter is smart. He wrapped his critical views in praises; the real content to be revealed only to those who read between the lines"""

I understand what you are saying, But I am to straight spoken and maybe not eloquent enough and if I did something like that it would raise a stink.

I have lived in places where you would be seen and rounded up if in a group, I like China but could never live there as my fashion of speech would surely get me in trouble. Also I came back to S.E. Asia with the memories of Viet Nam strong in my mind and they are still there, but I could never live there again.

Maybe thats what happens when you live to long..I know I have..

[kasandrasikl]

Interesting links Khun Don.

When I started this topic I had no idea which way the thread would go. I have found it to be a very interesting and stimulating discussion that has given me some new areas/ideas for research. Thanks guys, gotta love these forums

[ChrisGoldstein]

I really do not think it would have been to smart an idea for Thailand to have told Japan that it couldn't build a railroad here if they wanted to anyway,non-aggression treaty or not.
and if it was really ever colonized, it must have been the Brits, that seems where most of the resources went and they do drive on the wrong side of the road and hold their forks in the wrong hand.5555