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Having lived in Japan for 2 years, I still did not pick up the language all that well, just enough to get by, besides the fact I had a secretary that could speak both Japanese and English. so I admire any one that can pick up another language. I speak English in every country I go to, as this is the international language of the world. Now some people seem to get on a high if they think there better than some one else, and to me this is a form of elitism. Thailand is more superior economically than Laos, so some narrow neck people get on a high when they put other people below them. I feel there is some Jealousy there, they probably thinking, why has this Laos-Thai woman got a farang man, when a Thai-Thai woman should have the farang man. Now I know your wife still Thai, but in the eyes of other Thai woman, she is like an imported Thai, so they are thinking she is less Thai than them and there jealous because of there elitist attitude.

[gastabegree]

I am not writing this as a blog, rather I think this should be an open discussion....

Ya know here is some info that got me thinking and I will probably be flamed for this post, but I would like to share an opinion.

My wife is from Mokduhan, but when we go to Thailand she visits family in Savankhet Laos. She has family on both sides. She had long been in the USA when we met, so I never questioned her background till about a few months ago. But long story short she was a Lao citizen, not Thai as I had naturally assumed.

All this time in TCB and on the forums, I simply explained to everyone she was from Mokduhan, and really did not know that was not her place of birth. So one day back in June, I was in TCB and someone asked how long I had studied Thai. I told them a few years and they commended my endurance and evidently wondered why I was studying for so long and what my drive was. Of course they first asked about my wife.

I told them she was Lao and she is from Savankhet (the Savankhet skyline by the way can easily be seen from Mokduhan or at least the hospital depends on haze). The response I got astounded me.

The chatter commenced to explain that my wife is not Thai therefore there is no reason for a farang to study Thai. She told me I need to study Laotian! I gave it no mind, but she was quite persistant. I did finally get angry, I did not draw attention or ban/alert her (at the time being a mod), but I was very angry by the rascism.

I then explained that I do speak Lao, in fact I speak Lao far better than I speak Thai, because so many Lao words are used in my house. I can not read Lao, and nor do I care to attempt to learn Lao. Honestly I feel it is a dead language or dying anyway, and most Lao higher educational systems use Thai printed material due to the lack of Lao books on the same level.

I finally left the chat, so angered by it that I did not return for several months. Before the Thai people speak up and say 'Lao and Thai, we are cousins, we are the same'. I have heard it a million times, always from the Thai people.

I was in the local Asian market last year and my wife asked the Thai woman if they were out of noodles. The woman got very upset, and boldly and rudely said "I do not understand, I am not Lao or Isaan!" My wife repeated it in Thai accent free and the woman again got angry and louder then said "Please speak English!". Noodles, it is the same word in Bangkok as it is in Pakse!

I have told you all that I grew up with many Lao friends all my life. That is why I speak Lao, I have played Takraw (gathaw) since I was 6 or 7 years old. Lao ja (from Carabao) was one of the first songs I liked to sing before I was 10. These refugees after I grew up, began telling me some of the stories from the refugee camps bordering Laos. I am not going into detail ever on this site, because I don't want anything bad to happen to this site.

I know some call it the spoilages of war, and I honestly believe that the Thai government is good as a whole. I am very sure that these things would not be done by Thai soldiers today. I am not bashing Thailand, but I am simply pointing out that there is a race issue, and it has displayed itself in a very drastic manner, in the refugee camps, my local market and in TCB. That is why I say don't tell me we are cousins.

What I want to know, is why?

We all know where the black and white race issue comes from in the USA, that is very public and well known. We all know about the ethnic issues the Nazi's had, that too is documented. Chechynia, Bosnia, Georgia, Sudan, Pattani we know all these. So is anyone going to have a comment on how this could have come about? Is it simply the class distinction? If so why do these Thai people feel they are any better? What happened?

[Inenuedbabnor]

If i am right, Laotian is the most internationally spoken language in the world in terms of 'spoken outside of the actual country'.

Laos is home to an estimated 5 million people but 15 million Thais of the Isarn region speak it as a mother tongue. Then, i think, its another 500,000 in the US etc...

Anyway, the figures add up to the likes of 4 times more people speak Laotian as a mother tongue outside of Laos than inside.

As Stacker has rightly said, Laotian is a pretty 'defunct' language in regards to the spoken aspect. All institutes of further education within Laos itself use foreign language textbooks, especially Thai.

One serious advantage to knowing Thai to Laotian is that in Laos most of the folk understand Thai (even though they may not be able to speak it so well) mostly because of the export of Thai soap operas, and im not joking.

In Thailand however, most Thais can not understand Laotian unless they are of course, from the Isarn region.

That cocky shopowner you met and her noodles is no different from a lot of the Thais you meet at tourist centers who pretend they dont understand the Farang when he attempts to speak Thai. In fact, in France and Quebec you'll find the same with a lot of the French speaking natives there, pretending they dont understand English.

Mark my word though Thais as a whole aren't THAT racist. Thet can have a laugh etc... about folks from other countries but nothing they are going to kill for unlike other places in the world.

Stacker, i am though speaking about the Thais i know here in Thailand but after a year or so of getting to know Thais brought up in The US say... im starting to feel that they are almost a completely different kettle of fish.

I mean over the past year or so ive read a lot of scornful comments from overseas Thais that i would never hear here in Thailand.

May i be right Stacker to say that a lot of overseas Thais 'have a chip on their shoulder' or are somehow lost, in regards to actual 'identity'. A lot of them may call themselves Thai but they are as much Thai as you or I are Laotian. Any thoughts on that?

[cokLoolioli]

I do Steve.

I can not tell you where the chatter was from, I never asked. She never missed a single conjunction so I could only assume she was in the USA. Conjunctions tend to be ignored by non-native speakers. There was something really big on her shoulder yes. Whatever all these people act like this for I do agree it is some sort of identity issue. They somehow are lost in a fantasy world, and as paul_au mentioned probably due to the elitist attitude that they take on.

It reminds me of a blog you posted Steve, about staying at in-laws house. They were shocked that a Lao girl could be so light-skinned and beautiful (from the VCD). They too would be shocked that many Lao people attend University and have a higher education than much of the gangster trash in other places. I think too this is a major reason that Pop music is such a huge thing in Bkk. Luk Tung music has far too deep of roots in the Isaan land. I think that it makes people in the city angry to even see "the dark dumb Isaan country bumpkin" actually do better than what they have done for themselves or for their family from the city.

The soldiers at the refugee camps sold the US bought food rather than distributing it as tehy were supposed to, they then replaced it with cheap supplies.... That was for profit and totally expected during a time such as this. We have always allowed our human/animal nature to take advantage when another is down in human history.

The local citizens calling the refugees terrible things and yelling at them 'Why do you want to come to my country'. (yes in Thailand not even in their host country yet) - That I just assumed was jealousy because the Lao people got a free ride to France, Canada, Netherlands, Denmark, and USA. I know at least 3 different Thai women where I am from that lied and claimed to be Lao so they could get refugee status. So that I think jealousy covers.

I think much of the issue stems from jealousy of some sort. I am asking why though. Because they will all say "We are cousins", but not a single one of them feels that way, below the surface of the comment is a heart rotting jealousy.

[viagraman]

Well... I guess thats one way to look at it.

So would Austrailian women be jealous of an ... nevermind, this is beyond analogies.

Quote[/b] ]but in the eyes of other Thai woman, she is like an imported Thai

[Michaelnewerb]

This is quite a can of worms you've opened up, Stacker, and it's clearly an issue that has affected you personally. I can remember standing on the bank of the Mekhong River at Tat Phanom for the "Lao market day", watching a stream of longtail boats cross the river from Laos and back, bringing goods in both directions. The Thai border guards checked no one. It didn't feel like an international border. Isaan is a fascinating place, on many levels.

Quote[/b] ]So is anyone going to have a comment on how this could have come about? Is it simply the class distinction? If so why do these Thai people feel they are any better? What happened?

I think it's necessary to go back to the history of the Kingdom of Ayutthaya and the subsequent transition to the early Chakri Dynasty to help understand how things developed. During the Ayutthaya period (1569-1767), most of the Korat Plateau (Northeast Thailand and Southern Laos) as well as Laos up to just past Luang Prabang was part of the Kingdom of Lan Sang.

I mention Lan Sang so that the following quote will make sense. Also, the reference to the "Tai" people is to the general linguistic and cultural group that eventually became the Thai people of modern times. So "Tai" includes Lan Sang, Ayutthaya (Ayudhya), and some others, as distinct from groups like the Mon, Khmer, and Burmese. The following paragraph is from Thailand: A Short History by David K. Wyatt (chapter 5, pages 99-100 of the softcover edition).

Quote[/b] ]Of all the institutions that needed to be fashioned out of the chaos of the late sixteenth century, an effective military organization was especially important in order to defeat the Burmese. The challenge Burma posed to Tai survival was sufficiently strong to spur quick action, yet also sufficiently distant and intermittent to allow Ayudhya and Lan Sang time to mobilize their scattered resources and develop new leadership. Two hundred years later, in the 1760s, the Tai world again was laid waste by Burmese armies, but it was not because Ayudhya and Lan Sang had stagnated in the interim. On the contrary, both states had developed and matured, and had experienced golden ages that subsequent generations would remember with pride. They did, however, develop differently. Uniquely in the Tai world, Ayudhya now underwent important social change that made its governing elite much more cosmopolitan than their Lao and Tai Yuan couterparts, that made them, indeed, the nucleus for what ultimately would become a national elite.

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Quote[/b] ]So would Austrailian women be jealous of an ... nevermind

I presume the word is Thai. Yes well Australian woman seem to get very jealous when I'm out with an Asian woman in general, as they are thinking why don't I ask them out instead.

[uneniaPhenits]

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