[Atmotteenrift]

I watched "Fantastic 4" yesterday with my Thai gf... and i stand probably 2 to 3 min for the King... and then i carry on to enjoy the show....
so after the movie, i asked my gf... hmmm.. why is it only the Americans have superheroes? Since Thai make so many movies... did u guys ever come up with ur own Thai superheroes? I don't really remember any famous Hong Kong superheroes too... or Bollywood superheroes.... Why is it only the Americans so keen to "save the world" and "to make a difference in the world"?

Should i open a new thread for this discussion?

[draigenia]

If you are in a foreign country you have to follow the customs, simple like that.
Standing up for the anthem is not only a show of respect for the king, it also showing repect for all thai people.
Even the beggers will be upset when you stay seated.
Whatever your reasons are, you are a guest in this country well at least show some respect!
When you come to MY country you have to deal with OUR rules and not act like the "i'm an american" guy i do what i want.
Guy's like you som tam make me ashame to be farang.

[Atmotteenrift]

Quote[/b] (malek @ July 10 2005,18:11)]If you are in a foreign country you have to follow the customs, simple like that.
Whatever your reasons are, you are a guest in this country well at least show some respect!

There there.. this is one fine gentlemen i won't mind inviting into my house..

cheers

[Inenuedbabnor]

In fact Somtum was wrong in mentioning that a majority of the folks over there aren't warmongers and in favour of war etc...

Did not 53% of yous vote to continue with the war thing after your last election? There you have it. And it's not just the Americans, it's human nature.

In case you didn't know, that is NOT the national anthem they stand up for at the cinema but instead the 'King's Anthem'.

Since this is the King's Anthem and not the National Anthem it is considered a direct insult to the monarch if Somtum refuses to stand-up in the cinema.

Somtum has been lucky not to have been arrested.

[layevymed]

I can’t believe the reactions I am reading. Well maybe I can. I mean did you even bother to read what I have said? I mean @Tongram is telling me that I am trying to save people’s lives? And saying that I don’t think that him\or her’s? Life is worth it? And you say I am telling you what to do? The exact opposite is true. Everybody else is telling me what to do!! They are telling me to stand like some State apologist. Look at the first post it is about not standing for the republican anthem. By Sawatdee, Not ME! Then I said that I don’t stand for the King song. Why is acceptable for Sawadee to say that he doesn’t stand for the Antem but I can’t say I don’t stand for the king? WHY? What revolution are you people talking about? I don’t belive in bloody revolutions because people rule now and some other tyrant will rule again. Just like ancient rome. The armies come in and take over and they just unscrew the heads of the old stautues and put new heads on.If there is any talk of revolution it should be from within. Because we all bow down to Authority. It could be Parents, Governments, Laws, common sense,God, the market, safety, respect what ever. Why does @Tongram say that the developing world has more problems to solve than I have? ME? I am just a person in the world like everyone of you. I have no control over my life. I mean what choice can we truly make? It isn’t a choice when we have to work or starve. The problems that exist in America are pretty much the same as exist everywhere else. It is because governments are busy making weapons to destroy the earth instead of giving people homes , proper eduction, and health care….I am totally aware that in America the barbed wire isn’t barbed wire it is yellow lines in the highways. People aren’t outright murdered and disappear like they do in some places. (well not all the time) But they do become cogs in the faceless machine. I mean they become workers. Taxi drivers. They may not be dead but they are still voiceless and powerless like me. I mean @tongram I understand you are in INDIA? I mean I know you must know about the water tables going down and farmers killing themselves? You are worried about me not standing for some King who drives a rolls Royce past kids begging in the street? I don’t mean to be condescending, but everyone else is telling me what to do and how to act. Because I am a guest in the country? And @BUCKY. That is another typical response is they always say there are problems here but there are also problems over there too! Of course, but I am not talking about America. I am talking about THAILAND. I hear the same thing from the thais, when I say Bangkok is so polluted. They say, no it’s not. Calcutta is much worse. So that makes it okay? Because there is some where that is more messed up? Have you seen the green buses driven by farmers drinking Red Bulls driving like maniacs? The black smoke spitting out. I forget the statistics about pollution in Bangkok but the busses account for a large percentage of the pollution but little of the actual traffic. So why do they not make busses that don’t pollute. The kings got em.Why doesn’t the king go on tv and say for his birthday he wants all the polluted busses to be taken off the street and put clean non-polluting busses there instead?. And all the politicians can come up with is the idea to build more roads. WHY do they think building more roads will solve the problem of traffic? They DON”T CARE! It is because them and their friends are the owners of Cement companies and they are going to make huge PROFITS! Selling cars and making Roads. I mean have you seen how low a down payment on a car is in Bangkok? Why not make it more expensive so less people buy damm cars. It has to stop.. Get rid of the cars and make them into Hospital beds. Have you been in a thai hospital? They need beds. I have seen people lined up in the middle of hallways because there is no room for them. And then you go saying that THE HOUSE RULES APPLY. Well THE HOUE RULES ARE MEANT TO BE BROKEN. I mean if all those factory workers in America during World War 2 and after world war two didn’t organize and have strikes there would still be child labour and 80-hour workweeks and unsafe working conditions. Things have improved and it was because people fought for their rights and just didn’t sit around and accept the HOUSE RULES. @ Bucky in America I don’t know what would happen if you went to a ball game and didn’t stand. I know in High School I wouldn’t stand. NO WAY. They would tell me to stand I would say why? I am not standing for a flag which is a symbol of WAR and blind patriotism. I didn’t’ get beat up. I am not lucky to get ice thrown at me. It was awful, made me sad. That somebody would do that just because they don’t agree with them or don’t follow the so called rules like some servant. @Selba You are Asian in Indonesia? You respect your culture and tradition? What about the Ache rebels? What about their traditions? The government you support after the Tsunami still found Ache people to kill. I mean they shot dead 100 of them the day after the Tsunami. Of course I am aware you government is supported by Australia and America, Rolls Royce makes engines for the helicopters that shoot your people dead. You want to stand for your flag when they kill? Go ahead. I DON”T AND WON”T. And it is your choice as it is MINE. WHAT KIND OF ARGUMENT is the horse and sheep. Horse and sheep are two different species of Animals. (we eat both) … But humans are just humans. We have the same basic human instincts and desires for freedom. I believe that. I don’t know if you agree. @what Malek says I won’t even bother to answer because I already explained what those symbols serve. And why I reject them. I never said “I am an Ameircan I’ll do what I want”……I SAID… I am a human being with my own free will and I will do what I want…And I also said do what you want………..Sorry for the lengthy reply nobody probably bothered to read it anyway.

[etdgxcnc]

Som Tam,
I think you probably should write a book about "Rules that meant to be broken."
Actually what is your problem? what makes you such as a very rebellious person? Don't you have any rules in your house/family? or you just disobey them? Wondering, what will be your reaction when you have wife/children by your own and they don't respect or disobey every rules/decisions you have made.
Sorry to say this and if it is getting much too personal, I think a rebellious person usually is an unhappy person - lack of love and attention.

[layevymed]

@ Steve I am aware that it is the king song and not the national anthem. And I wouldn’t stand for that either. No ANTHEM. Again I already explained that elections and voting don’t mean a thing because people aren’t informed. And would you like me thrown in jail because I don’t stand up? I am not a rebellions person. I work like some loser everyday. I get woken up by an alarm clock! Can you believe that? Of course @Selba never answered my questions about the Ache rebels..I don’t make any irrational rules to obey. There are rational rules and irrational rules. I mean stop signs make sense if they weren’t there people might crash into each other. But there are also irrational rules. Like the ones I would rebel against. Like saying something like if you drop a coin you have to wai it because it has a picture of GOD on it. It is just a coin. So who cares? I don’t make irrational rules nor do I tell anybody how to act. It’s your choice. Do what you want think how you want I won’t put you in prison or drop a bomb on you. Like others do. Can you belive that? I mean there are rulers playing with missiles. Imagine if I tried to play around with missiles I would be locked up in one second……………Here is a great quote I read once from a Pirate. An actual Pirate back in the 1600’s…..I don’t know if he had a wooden leg or not. But I think he had an eye patch. He said…….I DO WHAT I DO WITH ONE SHIP AND YOU CALL ME A PIRATE. BUT WHEN YOU DO WHAT I DO WITH A FLEET OF SHIPS THEY CALL YOU AN EMPOROR. …….oh yeah about love and attention, I gots plenty of love baby…….No kids though. No way. They scare me. But I like them.

[Nypbscao]

I agree with Som Tam. All these people critisize him just because he doesn't follow the rules. It is his choice. Nobody says a thing about their governments killing people. I mean in Indonesia they invaded East Timor and killed 70,000 people in the 70's. Selba says she respects her Governments. EVEN THE SUHARTO REGIME?

[draigenia]

Interesting discussion i must say

Some quote of somtam
"I don’t know what would happen if you went to a ball game and didn’t stand.
I know in High School I wouldn’t stand. NO WAY. They would tell me to stand I would say why?
I am not standing for a flag which is a symbol of WAR and blind patriotism. I didn’t’ get beat up."
ANSWER:You don't get beaten up because you ARE an american, you have the right to reject it, i pretty
sure if a foreigner will do the same, he could get in big trouble.
The flag is one thing but I wonder what would happen if you don't stand up for the "president of the united states"
your "sort of king"

"Look at the first post it is about not standing for the republican anthem.
By Sawatdee, Not ME! Then I said that I don’t stand for the King song.
Why is acceptable for Sawadee to say that he doesn’t stand for the Antem
but I can’t say I don’t stand for the king? WHY?"

ANSWER:Tell you why: sawatdee is THAI and he his not a visitor (guest)
If he decide not to stand up, he can because he/she is a thai.
He can, but it will not be accepted by his own ppl



"Things have improved and it was because people fought for their rights
and just didn’t sit around and accept the HOUSE RULES"
A country can only move forward when the ppl are united. Social disorder is not the best way
to make changes. There will be always rules to obey, from traffic rules upto social rules


"I SAID… I am a human being with my own free will and I will do what I want…And I also said do what you want"
ANSWER: "I do what i want".... and i don't bother how others feel.....sounds very selfish to me. You get freedom
because other ppl accept a different opinion, but it doesn't give you the right to "do whatever you want"
You find some rules stupid, and yes maybe they are, but they part of a nation and you have to follow them.

[Atmotteenrift]

Quote[/b] (malek @ July 11 2005,19:03)]"Look at the first post it is about not standing for the republican anthem.
By Sawatdee, Not ME! Then I said that I don’t stand for the King song.
Why is acceptable for Sawadee to say that he doesn’t stand for the Antem
but I can’t say I don’t stand for the king? WHY?"

"I SAID… I am a human being with my own free will and I will do what I want…And I also said do what you want"

ANSWER: "I do what i want".... and i don't bother how others feel.....sounds very selfish to me. You get freedom
because other ppl accept a different opinion, but it doesn't give you the right to "do whatever you want"
You find some rules stupid, and yes maybe they are, but they part of a nation and you have to follow them.

First of all, i think most of us here are confused... Sawatdee isn't the one who wrote the first post. The post was extracted from The Nation, newspaper..... I'm sure Sawatdee himself stand for his King in the movies...

I need to emphasize... personally, I feel every house has their own rules... if residents find the rules unbearable, they themselves should be the ones to stand and change their own rules... outsiders shouldn't step in to demand the house owner to change the rules to suit them....

Guests should respect the owner and his house rules when they are in his house...

And for Mr Bok Bok... i not sure u from where.. but i think ur english no very good... because i sure u misunderstand Selba... i sure Selba does not approve of killings in her own country... but i am sure she love her own country... she MIGHT not love her ex-president or politicians though.. but I am sure she love her own country....

As for Som Tam.. i don't think he is selfish.. probably self centered...

cheers

[draigenia]

"As for Som Tam.. i don't think he is selfish.. probably self centered..."

ok maybe this is a better word. (english is not my home language)

[Indian Butt Magic]

Som Tam is one of the few people on this forum with any common sense.
I for one use common sense and logic over custom's. To me most customs and that includes all customs, not only Thai customs were mostly invented in the old day's of oppression and superstition and should be modernized to suit modern day reality. All customs are just human inventions, invented by the powerful in society, to control the less powerful. Just because some one tells you standing is a sign of respect is just a human invention, some one could have invented a custom to punch your self in the face and gives your self a black eye in the respect of a VIP, but just because some one invents an insane rule does not mean you need to follow it like a moron that cannot thing for them selves.
Som Tam has a right to follow his own rules and not be oppressed by a rule that in reality were designed to oppress the poor to pay more respect and more of there money to support people like my self, the moderately well off and others even more so, the super wealthy. Remember the rich are only rich by the exploitation of the poor people's cheap labor. So the rich do not want the poor people to have an independent mind, because that way they cannot control them. Now if the rich can make some one stand for no rational reason, another words a superstitious cultural custom, that is a sign of control, a sign of power over the peasant class, so as to control and exploit them even further and make them work for even less, so the rich can live in Supreme Style and excessive extravagance, when the person who actually does the hard labor and manufactures products for the wealthy actually get peanuts for a wage and live in a tin shelter.

[Atmotteenrift]

Quote[/b] (paul_au @ July 11 2005,20:11)]Som Tam is one of the few people on this forum with any common sense.
I for one use common sense and logic over custom's.

when the person who actually does the hard labor and manufactures products for the wealthy actually get peanuts for a wage and live in a tin shelter.

hmmm.. how true.. how true.. words of wisdom from our Mr Paul.. i too believe somehow wealth has to be built through some sort of exploitations..

so tell me, Paul.. since u're a self-claimed millionaire... how many people have u exploited to become a millionaire?

And Som Tam... who wrote about TRYING to use a handphone to exploit a Thai lady for s e x ......

so then u come to Thailand and talk about how the rich are exploiting the poor and u've no respect for the authorities here.....

hmmm.. what an interesting world we live in....

[Lhtfajba]

Enough has been said. This topic will self-delete in 12 hours. copy it now if you wish to preserve anything. We should have deleted this topic right at the start. You are not allowed to discuss the royal family in such a manner on these forums.

[Lhtfajba]

CULTURE CONTROVERSY: ‘I cannot stand up for the republican anthem’
The Nation, Published on June 13, 2005

Sumet Jumsai, the well-known architect and historian, talks to Nation editor Pana Janviroj on our understanding of the national anthem, one of the centrepieces of the Thai national identity.

What do you think of the recent controversy concerning the national anthem?

The controversy arising from the potential musical variations by GMM Grammy [music company] and the protest by the minister of culture is really a storm in a teacup. It misses the basic question of whether the so-called “national anthem” should exist in the first place.

There have been a number of national anthems in the past. When I was a schoolboy we used to sing the “24th June Anthem” to coincide with National Day and to commemorate the coup which toppled the absolute monarchy in 1932. As I grew up, this was replaced by the republican anthem – that is, the present anthem. It gave way eventually to the Royal Anthem but was resurrected in the 1970s under the Thanin government, which was supposed to be staunchly monarchist.

Why do you suppose the national anthem is republican?

This country has two anthems, one royal, the other republican. Let me translate the wording of the latter for you to judge for yourself:

“Thailand comprises the Thai blood and race; it is the People’s State (that is, a republic) which belongs to the Thai race in its entirety. It preserves its entity by its pure Thai (blood) and unity. Thais love peace but are brave in battle. (Our) freedom cannot be compromised. We sacrifice every drop of blood for the country, for the Thai nation, for victory! Chai-yo!”

Are there problems with that?

Firstly, the monarchy is ignored in the anthem. Secondly, it is simply racist. I have a problem here because of my Chinese blood. Even on my Thai side, I am descended from Mon and Javanese Muslim ancestors, as are all the descendants of King Rama III and King Rama V. I am proud of that; but if I were a citizen from the South, that is, with Malay antecedents, I would find it difficult to stand up for the so-called “national anthem”.

In any case, I cannot stand up for the republican anthem; not in our case at any rate.

Isn’t that a criminal offence?

Many years ago, the French embassy celebrated their July 14 national day by playing the Marseillaise followed by the Thai republican anthem. MR Panthip Paribatra was there in the front row and sat down throughout the republican rendition! More recently, celebrating the same event, the embassy played the Thai republican anthem (again). I then walked up to the ambassador who happened to be a good friend and told him that it was out of tune. He understood and immediately instructed the band to replay the anthem – the correct one.

To answer your question: of course it is criminal to ignore the so-called national anthem. But thank God the guillotine is in the museum.

Recently you protested against the national anthem being played at the Cultural Centre. Could you elaborate?

It was at an embassy function earlier this year, a concert. When the republican anthem was aired, I simply sat down, like MR Panthip Paribatra before me. I then wrote to the National Culture Commission (NCC) to say that since we have not yet changed the Constitution, we should not pre-empt it.

Back in 1999 I wrote to then prime minister Chuan Leekpai to propose that we should have only one national anthem, the royal one, like in the UK. The PM’s Office was kind enough to reply saying that the NCC objected and something else short of being memorable.

I gather that for decades you have been advocating the Royal Anthem in association with “Siam” as the country’s name.

It isn’t just the name, but the concept of the country that is the real issue. “Thailand” entails ethnic connotations, hence exclusive; whereas “Siam” is inclusive, being a loose geographic entity comprising the different groups – ethnic, religious and cultural – all paying loyalty to the King who is protector of all the religions in the Kingdom – and this is unique in the world.

Both “Thailand” and “Siam” are the official names of the country, “Siam” being used only on auspicious occasions, or in conjunction with royal titles. So I would let it be and not disturb the status quo. All the same, for the South, the name “Siam”, and indeed its concept, would be infinitely more useful.

I should interject an anecdote here. Many years ago, in 1983, the late MR Kukrit Pramoj gave a talk at the Foreign Correspondents Club in which he related that Tungku Abdul Rahman once told him that he – the Tungku – was Siamese but that at the same time he could never be Thai.

As for the two anthems, I have tried my best to be open-minded about it. This country is full of contradictions. In fact it seems to thrive on the coexistence of the opposites. I don’t know what the future holds; I suppose the republican anthem might come in handy at some point. But I won’t be around then.

[pageup85]

Are foreigners supposed to stand for the national anthem? If you read the lyrics, then you'll see that the anthem definitely does not apply to us, so what if we decide to ignore it?

I have been out with Thai friends who have ordered me to respect the national anthem as not to offend other Thais in the area. What's the deal?

[Indian Butt Magic]

When the Queen Elizabeth ll visited Australia, I did not stand and bow, in her presence as custom requires, I just stayed seated and said G-day, as I do not put any one above my self, Ironically, I'm a big supporter of the British royal family.