[Crilosajsamq]

Quote[/b] (delawang @ Oct. 04 2004,06:28)]worse still, she's not even cute

I know it's really too bad.

Quote[/b] (delawang @ Oct. 04 2004,06:28)]
Sometimes people like to shock and upset other people, and other times they do it accidentally. It is a shame when people do it accidentally, so the cultural guide is not a bad idea.

I agree and a booklet on the subject would be helpful. But ya see where it is pissing me off is the government is making a big public spectacle of this publication as if the farang are at the root of the problem.

Quote[/b] (delawang @ Oct. 04 2004,06:28)] In the case of the girl with the Buddha image, this looks like she is trying to get attention and does not have any other way to do it.

Again good point, that is her mistake and failure at showing proper respect. But how did she possibly think that such a picture would pique people's interest? It was in no way my idea. Yet I am the guy this booklet is directed toward.

How about the pictures on your cellphone background, I do not have it. Yet though there are thousands of teens in BKK alone that have that set as their background image, I AM THE GUY THE BOOKLET IS BEING PRINTED FOR??

If this isn't a switch-the-blame-get-out-of-the-hotseat and blame-the-people-who-do-not-understand-what-is-going-on game then I don't know another way to define it.

[ulw7A8Po]

Yes that is exactly what I mean. There should not be a booklet printed for foreigners on the matter of respect. There should be a booklet printed for the locals on the matter of respect.

Now clearly I don't really feel this way, but this is just the kind of cover up that Big Government is so well known for. You know I wouldn't care about it this much, except that the government is making a big PR issue out of this, as if it were going to fix the problems miraculously! Rather than saying we have some problems in this area and addressing it, they will blame the easiest targets they can.

I live in Ohio, near the Michigan border. The people in the large city on the border, have very poor driving habits, so Ohio in turn blames it all on Michigan drivers who come down here to visit. Yet Michigan drivers have an even safer driving record than the drivers of Ohio. Same situation blame the easy target, the target that the locals want the root of the problem to caused from, whether it is their fault or not.

The website with that picture is truly amusiing, people were even threatening that girl with death!! But here again I ask, is this the farang at the root? If so then why is this picture as a mobile phone background image so popular among the youth??? Think about it

[Crilosajsamq]

Good point but your friend made the same reply on the last page, so Mike replied with the following.

Quote[/b] (Mike @ Sep. 14 2004,20:56)]Seeker, I do think the booklet is a good idea to prevent honest blunders. However, all the information in this booklet presumably won't differ much from the cultural do's and don'ts already provided in every guidebook, all around the web, in the many free magazines, maps and leaflets you can currently pick up etc.... The main tourist temples have strict do and don't rules clearly posted too. So all the information is clearly already available for those who want to know it - will one more booklet make any difference ? The problem seems to me to be more the number of people who either don't care or deliberatly ignore the rules, and how that could be improved is a different matter I guess.

[opelayday]

Looks like there's another similar incident taken place....

Quote[/b] ]¶èÒÂà»Å×ͤÙè¾ÃÐÀÒ¾ÎÔµ¨ÍÁ×Ͷ×Í
ªÒÇ¡Ãاà¡èÒÊÐà·×͹ã¨ÀÒ¾¹Ò§áºº¹Ùé´ªÒÇàÍàªÕÂäÁè·ÃÒºÊ Ñ*ªÒµÔ à»Å×Í¡ÒÂâ¾Êµì·èÒ¤Ùè¡Ñº¾Ãоط¸ÃÙ» ¡ÓÅѧÎÔµâËÅ´µèÍà»ç¹ÀҾ˹éÒ¨ÍÁ×Ͷ×Íã¹ËÁÙèÇÑÂÃØè¹ ÊÀÒÇѲ¹¸ÃÃÁÍÂظÂÒÍÍ¡âçãËéÃÑ°µÃǨÊͺËҵ鹵ÍãËéä´é ËèǧÇÑÂÃØè¹à¾ÅÔ¹Êè§ÀÒ¾ËÇÔǢͧµÑÇàͧ¼èÒ¹·Ò§Á×Ͷ×ÍÁÒ ¡¢Öé¹

àÃ×èͧÊŴ㨪ÒǾط¸Âѧ¤§ÁÕäÁèËÂØ´ËÂè͹ÅèÒÊØ´ àÁ×èÍàÇÅÒ 12.00 ¹.Çѹ·Õè 1 µ.¤. ä´éÁÕ¾ÅàÁ×ͧ´Õ¤¹Ë¹Öè§ ÁÕÀÙÁÔÅÓà¹ÒÍÂÙè·Õè µ.ËÑÇÃÍ Í.¾Ãй¤ÃÈÃÕÍÂظÂÒ ¹ÓÀÒ¾¶èÒ¢ͧË*Ô§ÊÒÇÁÒãËé¡Ñº¼ÙéÊ×èÍ¢èÒÇ´Ù â´ÂÃкØÇèÒÀÒ¾·Õèä´éÁÒ¹Õéä´éÃѺµèÍ æ ¡Ñ¹ÁÒ¨Ò¡à¾×è͹·Õè¤Ø¡ѹ·Ò§ÍÔ¹à·ÍÃìà¹çµ áÅÐÁÕ¡ÒÃà¼Âá¾Ãè¡Ñ¹ã¹ÃéÒ¹ÍÔ¹à·ÍÃìà¹çµ â´ÂÀÒ¾´Ñ§¡ÅèÒÇà»ç¹ÀÒ¾Ë*Ô§ÊÒÇàÍàªÕ äÁè·ÃÒºÊÑ*ªÒµÔ ¼ÔÇ¢ÒÇ ¼ÁÂÒÇÊÕ´Ó à»Å×ÍÂ˹éÒÍ¡ ÊÇÁ¡Ò§à¡§ã¹áºº¨ÕʵԧÊÕ´Ó â¾Ê·èÒâ´ÂÂ×¹à·éÒᢹáÅÐãªé˹éÒÍ¡àºÕ´¡ÑºàÈÕÂâͧ¾ÃÐ ¾Ø·¸ÃÙ» «Ö觴٨ҡÅѡɳоÃоط¸ÃÙ»¨ÐÍÍ¡ä»·Ò§ÈÔŻТͧ*Õè»Øè¹ ËÃ×ͨչ

My rough translation is "Residents of the former capital are shocked by nude photos of a Asian model of unknown nationality posing with a Buddha image. The images are becoming popular amongst teenagers as a picture to have on their mobile phones. The Ayuthaya branch of Council of Cultural Affairs has launched an urgent investigation to find the source of the photos, admist fears teenagers will attempt to emulate the photos themselves to send to their friend's mobile phones.

This regrettable incident is unlikely to end with just this photo. At 12.00pm on the 1st October a native and local resident of Hua Ro district in Ayuthaya showed the photo of the women for a journalist to see and mentioned that more similar photos could be got from a friend he knows over the internet, and they were widely publicised on the internet. The aforementioned photos are of a topless Asian women of unknown nationality, with light skin and long dark hair wearing a black g-string, and leaning on top of the Buddha image, which appears to be of Japanese or Chinese design. "

Rest of the article, photo of the offending image and lots of angry comments at http://webboard.hunsa.com/read.php?cid=10&sid=304860

[Nothatspecial]

I think a pamphlet put out by the govt. informing foreigners of thai customs is an excellent idea.
Is it just me or does anybody else think some posts got off topic by pointing fingers at the misdeeds of a few locals ?
Indeed there is a big problem with foreigners coming to Thailand with no clue as to how to sact in thai civilization, commiting social blunders which wouldn't be tolerated if they were back home.
When trying to fix a problem you have to start somewhere and this little book is the first step towards enlightening ignorant foreigners.


Criticizing the govt. before the book has even been drafted does no good and neither does pointing out the faults of a few errant monks.

When encountering a new culture small social blunders are to be expected.
Having your picture taken sitting on top of Buddhas head is a social blunder of a huge magnitude.
Hopefully, this book will be able to educate the ignorance out of people.

[shieclulaweew]

Quote[/b] ]So all the information is clearly already available for those who want to know it - will one more booklet make any difference ?

You are right, Mike. There is a plethora of information on the cultural dos and don'ts; those who really want to know it will surely find it all, most likely before they'll even see this booklet. However, the intended audience is not the savy and considerate travelers, but the clueless tourists who are completely oblivious to these information sources. I think the reason is because one has to make an effort to access most currently available sources (Ie. do an internet search, buy a guidebook etc.). This booklet will be distributed to the places where tourists do most likely hang out, placing the information practically under their noses. I still wouldn't call that a perfect solution, but it'll improve the situation, I'm sure.

You also mention that the real problem are the people who deliberately ignore the rules. While the booklet won't help that directly, it provides an indirect assistance to the authorities who want to prosecute the offenders. It will do this by closing the loophole that many of these guys used before ("Oh, I didn't know that"). Now the authorities can point to the info published by them and say "Sorry. We told you so.

Quote[/b] ]Those quotes, after all, definitely are aimed at the (voting) Thai public at large even if the booklet itself isn't.

You mean, Thais have access to those comments by the media, right? Well, the monk incidents that you posted here are equally accessible to them, by the same media. So, if the comments do anything, they just balance the equation, IMO.

[shieclulaweew]

Quote[/b] ]Rather than saying we have some problems in this area and addressing it, they will blame the easiest targets they can.

I think you are making an assumption here, Stacker. Just because they are addressing the Farang problem (and you gotta admit, there is a Farang problem), it doesn't automatically exclude the possiblity of addressing their domestic problem as well. Could it just be that the Farang community has more info about governmental actions concerning its members? I would imagine that any initiative to address the nation's inside problems are discussed behind closed doors, perhaps high-ranking government officials cooperating with clergy leaders. That hardly needs extensive international coverage, IMO.


By the way: the article emphasized that the offending Asian female is of "unknown nationality". If she is not Thai, she is just one of the foreign offenders of Buddhism. The purpose of the booklet is to "prevent foreigners from disparaging Buddhism" according to its authors. This includes not only Farang, but foreigners of any race and nationality. Stacker, no offense, but I think you got a little bit carried away with this Farang thing. Please don't take the booklet personally - people who know you also do know that you respect the traditions and religion of Thailand. The opinion of those who don't know you matters little.

[ulw7A8Po]

Thanks for the heads up Seeker

I did get carried away like Mike said before the booklet was even drafted. I do agree that there is a serious farang problem in Thailand. But I agree that the problem they are accusing the farang of is a problem that persists possibly just as much nationally.

I define international coverage as being on CNN & BBC. The only mention of the booklet or any education even in the Thai news websites is simply this booklet. Nothing is said of how the internal problems are addressed. Much like a dismissal, sure locals have access to the news for the national issues, but nothing is mentioned on how these things are 'handled' in regards to prevention. Simply an 'after the fact' here is what happened news story. Like I said before if they wanted to educate the farang why do they put it into the Thai papers(if not a blame purpose) rather than the international travel magazines that this grand idea is in the making?

[Nothatspecial]

Stacker, I have to agree with delawang.
It seems to me the purpose of this pamphlet is to inform first time travellers to Thailand of the customs and how to observe them.
Like I said before, some small social blunders can be expected when encountering a new culture.
This book will help the tourist avoid problems and embarrasment of commiting social infractions.
I could tell you many stories of ignorant farangs I have seen in Bangkok that might have been helped by a book such as this.

Don't take it so personal buddy. LOL
One of the reasons this book is necessary is that Thais' are very tolerant of farangs but, the problem of farangs showing disrepect towards Thai customs and culture is getting out of hand.
It's time to address this problem.

[ulw7A8Po]

All of your points are valid, and strong. I am ending my side of the discussion, for 2 years. But I promise I will bring this back to highlight the topic and see how the improve is made.

There are far too many ignorant farang going to Thailand, I feel very bad for what the Thai people have had to put up with. Surely Thai people have seen two farang fighting before, well to clear this up somewhat I will explain. The reason they are fighting is because one is a stupid arrogant jerk with no respect for other cultures, the other farang is the educated, quiet, smarter one who is simply soooooooo offended that he feels compelled to hit the other in hopes of waking him up to to 21st century or even the 20th century which will many times do just fine. Yes that second one is the one who has respect for Thailand, he is so embarrassed he just wants the other to shut his mouth. Not all farang as most Thai people have seen certainly are not the same lol

[FailiaFelay]

Govt plans culture booklet for foreigners

The Nation, Published on Sep 12, 2004

The Ministry of Culture plans to launch a "Do and Don't" booklet for foreigners to learn about Thai culture before coming to the country.

After recent cases such as the poster of the movie "Hollywood Buddha" showing director Philippe Caland sitting atop of a Buddha statue's head and the Buddha labels on wine bottles of a Chinese company, the ministry has come up with the project to educate foreigners.

Kla Somtrakool, deputy permanent secretary at the ministry, said the booklet would tell foreigners what they can and cannot do in Thai society. He said that the booklets would be distributed to hotels, travel agencies, airline booths, consulates and the Immigration Bureau.

"If some foreigners still behave with malicious intentions, Thai Buddhists should denounce these people or not allow them to enter the country. For instance, foreigners should learn that the head is the most sacred part of the body and younger people are not allowed to touch older people's heads," Kla said.

He said that after the project receives approval from the minister and permanent secretary, the ministry would set up a committee to study the booklet's contents, particularly regarding the topics of offending the religion, insulting Thai women and smuggling of ancient objects.

Kla added that if foreigners really do not know about Thai culture, they could be forgiven. However, someone who understands the culture but still behaves improperly - perhaps for a business advantage - should not be allowed to enter the country. He said that he would ask the Foreign Affairs Ministry to consider not giving visas to foreigners who have condemned the country or burned the Thai national flag. He has already consulted with the Department of Information, which is responsible for the country's public relations.

Chong Wongkhan, vice president of the Senate committee on education, religion, arts and culture, said the committee and the Ministry of Culture had discussed the project and believed that the booklet could prevent foreigners from disparaging Buddhism.

Chong added that the committee had discussed the proposed booklet with the Foreign Affairs Ministry, who agreed to blacklist foreigners from entering the country as a punishment for previous indiscretions.

[shieclulaweew]

A much-needed step, for sure! There are too many ignorant "barbarians" trolling the streets of Thailand already.

I wonder though: how will the Thai authorites overcome the conflict of interest? That is, will they get tough on ignorant tourists, sex-tourists, revellers etc, risking the loss of income? Other good laws have fallen short due to tourist dollars - I hope this one will not suffer a similar fate.

[opelayday]

Right, but then it's also easy to "blame the foreigners" for any perceived insult when perhaps the real problems lie closer to home. For instance, while the incident of the director sitting on top of the statue is undoubtedly insensitive and ignorant, compare it to a few of the incidents regarding monks and abbots in Thailand in recent years and see which you think are worse...

"In 1996, Jo Masheder...was killed when she embarked on a backpacking trip to Thailand. She was pushed to her death in a ravine by a drug-addicted monk....Yodchart Suephoo, who was sentenced to death for the murder, pushed her to her death after stealing £12 and a camera from her. "

"On Monday (October 30), police arrested a Buddhist abbot for allegedly killing a woman whose body was found a week earlier inside a septic tank at a neighbor's home.Police seized Abbot Adhikan Arn Wattanadhammo, 46, in Petchabun town while he reportedly tried to burn bloodstained clothing and destroy a ring inscribed with the dead woman's surname. "

" In 1996, Thailand's freakiest Buddhist monk roasted a dead baby to extract "magical" oil, which dripped from its charred corpse.Police arrested Harn Raksajit, popularly known as Aer, after publication of a photograph showing how he allegedly grilled the tiny victim. "

"Reports said Phra Khru Viboon Pattanakit, abbot of the Sisakrabua temple in Bangkok, had collected around 60 classic cars, many of them Mercedes Benz"

"Chiang Mai police said a 26-year-old monk forged the head monk's ID card to steal 300,000 baht in cash to gamble on the World Cup. Police were alerted when the abbot at Wat Donnoi noticed that bankbooks were missing. Reports didn't say if the monk had won any bets"

"Some monks, after receiving food donated by devotees each morning, have sacrilegiously dumped it from their alms bowls into big plastic bags, and later sold the food to street vendors."

"A warrant for the arrest of Phra Dhammachayo, who is the abbot of the Wat Dhammakaya, was issued on Monday....Phra Dhammachayo is a charismatic middle-aged man who is said to be one of Thailand's richest landlords, stands accused of embezzling land and money from his supporters"

etc.... and that's just what I found with a quick web-search, there's many more out there. Though I'm sure this "culture booklet" is a good move, it seems a bit of a rose-tinted viewpoint to me for the authorities to suggest that it's foreigners who do most to harm the reputation of Buddhism in Thailand.

[Hammaduersnes]

One problem at a time please!
Else there is no problem

[ulw7A8Po]

There are plenty of things that people do that can upset so many others. Short sighted people, no concept of consequences, whatever one may call it as.

I mean clearly religious lines have been crossed, but I do not see how this could be the straw that broke the camel's back. Yet the government is seemingly staking this as the major claim. I mean the Thai men that I know here, have broken many laws, and many also cross religious lines here. Some of these should have gone to prison had the law been involved rather than the elders. But to say that Thai's are not accepted unless they adhere to this set of guidelines is a harsh line to draw.

I understand many of the ideas put forth, burning of the flag etc... But when a foreigner comes to Thailand there seems to be one purpose for it these days. I can understand how this could be limited or they can try to control this. But take into consideration the one of the topics "Insulting Thai Women"....

If a foriegner comes to Thailand and does some of the things that Thai men (just in the county I live) have done, Thailand would surely close their borders. I know a man who regularly beats his wife. I know a man who raped his mother in law and his sister in law ("Insulting Thai Women"??). I know a man who drinks 12 beers every day, for 10 years he has done this, another one still uses Opium. Another when the police tried to pull him over for driving drunk tried to outrun police, when finally stopped 12 miles down the road after the police flatenned his tires, he punched 2 of the arresting officers.

I am not saying that Thai men are bad. But if we foreigner did this in Thailand it would surely be a problem. But when it is done by them in other countries it is seemingly forgotten, and as Mike pointed out the same issues go on in Thailand by their own citizens. So it is not an issue of simply mis-behaving in another land, it takes place in Thailand as well.

But it is soooooooo much like a government to just blame the outsiders, by doing this it might help the on the foreigners end of the spectrum. But to disregard a domestic problem and blame on the one's who are not the only offenders, that will simply make the problem multiply, and probably put the Thai wrongdoers more so in the spotlight..... Not a good thing for a country that thrives on tourism.
My humble opinion

[favwebbb]

Perhaps if the mis-behaving tourists were banned, more 'normal' people would visit Thailand? People who are interested in the country for what it really is.. A beautiful country, people and culture.

[Crilosajsamq]

Actually I tend to agree with Mike on this one. Why would a government publish a booklet intended for foreigners, and admit to their own weaknesses? I think before even seeing the booklet that it will be overtly or maybe even subvertly stating that the foreigners are the roots of many of the problems.

Obviously not denying that the foreigners are all good, most everyone knows my opinions of the farang walking out of the bar with the 16 year old Thai girl. But to admit to the problems within itself, rather than simply blaming the outsiders is very much what government is good at doing. Thai government is no less a government, than when the United States says that globalization is destroying our job market when at the same time, the union jobs pay ridiculously huge hourly wages.

Fessing up to a internal problem is something that no government will ever be able to do. Think about it, most politician's are lawyers lol and one would expect honesty? 5555

[ulw7A8Po]

Seeker I am sooooo happy we finally disagree on something again!

Quote[/b] (Seeker @ Sep. 14 2004,20:16)]
Wait a minute, guys, hold on a sec! So you say that the purpose of this booklet is not so much the education of foreigners, but rather to make them the primary scapegoats for problems within the religion? That just doesn't make sense to me. I would understand if Thai people were the intended audience; then a blameshift would make sense.

Yes, I do think that is what is happening. I mean Thai people know it is coming forth toward the outsider's. The Thai people being the audience, well my point was that exactly... It is not for the Thai people to recognize the issues they face and put up with among themselves. It appears to be a method of letting the Thai people think that all the issues they are facing are due to foreigners. Clearly not to mute what wrongdoings go on and take place because of the farang, but as mentioned above there certainly are other and possibly larger issues at hand that do not involve the farangs.

Quote[/b] (Seeker @ Sep. 14 2004,20:16)]The cases about those monks are sad, but hardly surprising. I mean, after the Christian priest-scandal, and the terrorists of Islam, what did you expect? Yet, these internal problems are no reason to ignore the external ones, right?

I think so too, but I was not referring 100% to the few monks who need 'help'. I meant in general, there are dozens of major problems, and to blame it on the farang that gets loud after drinking, or is paying for sex is not the cause of these problems. The major point behind it seems to be the exploitation of the statues by cinema, yet the booklet does not appear to be steered in that direction from the articles.

I mean compare my above post, the booklet has a topic on insulting women? I am not saying anymore on that issue, I think it is all clear. I don't want to make Thai people appear evil, but there are some issues that need to be dealt with. By publishing a booklet for visitors does not fix this.

I mean would an British government agency offer advice to Japanese people vacationing in London a booklet on how not to get involved in anarchy? That is what makes no sense, I think. If they did this rather than crack down on the laws to the citizens, the citizens would keep going and the tourists would be even more confused after reading the booklet that hardly applies to most of them.

But as you said Seeker, with all the problems and scandals throughout the rest of the world, what would make someone think that Thailand is invulnerable to the same things.

[opelayday]

Seeker, I do think the booklet is a good idea to prevent honest blunders. However, all the information in this booklet presumably won't differ much from the cultural do's and don'ts already provided in every guidebook, all around the web, in the many free magazines, maps and leaflets you can currently pick up etc.... The main tourist temples have strict do and don't rules clearly posted too. So all the information is clearly already available for those who want to know it - will one more booklet make any difference ? The problem seems to me to be more the number of people who either don't care or deliberatly ignore the rules, and how that could be improved is a different matter I guess.

And I agree that this booklet is obviously not targeted towards the Thai public, it's just quotes like "If some foreigners still behave with malicious intentions, Thai Buddhists should denounce these people or not allow them to enter the country" and "prevent foreigners from disparaging Buddhism" just made me wonder if they were looking for scapegoats and/or pandering to populist sentiment, rather than actually tackling the issues at the heart of the current crisis in Buddhism in Thailand. Those quotes, after all, definitely are aimed at the (voting) Thai public at large even if the booklet itself isn't.

[shieclulaweew]

Quote[/b] ]But if we foreigner did this in Thailand it would surely be a problem

Stacker, you just pointed out what might be the greatest challenge of being an expat here. The very first friend I met in Thailand, a veteran expat, told me the following: "You will see Thai people occasionally violating these rules. They get away with it, because it doesn't create much attention. However, you are a big fish in a small bowl: everything you do will be given extra importance; your mistakes become magnified."

Not verbatim, but the same contentwise. Five months passed since I heard those words, and the advice proved to be wise indeed. Being the center of everyone's attention takes some time to get used to. Yes, our mistakes do get magnified. But so does everything else we do. Sometimes it is entertaining, sometimes it is frustrating, but one thing is sure: it is there to stay, fighting it or condemning it would be futile. The best thing an expat could do is just accept it as part of everyday life and to the best not to let interfere with happiness.