[viagradiscounttt]

P.S. That said, whenever I go to shiai, I still want to win, and try my damndest!

[12ZHeWZa]

George,

If it does not coincide with the Brazilian champ, which I think not, I'm in for scotland for sure. Gotta see those castles you got up there.

Not fighting in the Brazilian team though
The guys there are out of my league for now, if you know what I mean.

I hope that there'll be an 1,80m x 1m vacant space in your dojo floor for me to sleep in

[ñàéäèíã]

Kendokamax

In mudansha divisions usually the shimpan is not looking for THAT ippon. Most blows that connect ok (and some that do not) are commonly taken as yuukodatotsu.

In yudansha however they want more of everything, which I believe is fair enough.

(probably I told you things you already know, but just for conscience' sake)

[Corryikilelet]

"- electronic scoring as in western fencing. In present kendo, so much is up to the whim of the shimpan, who are frequently wrong"

I think it was Sumi Masatake sensei (http://www.kendo.org.uk/people/sumimasatake.shtml) who - when asked about the Miyazaki Vs Eiga match a couple of years ago (the one where M gets Men-ari without touching E.. who replied with a great Kaeshi-Do) - said (I paraphrase not wordage but content) "if the shimpan said it was a point then then it was a point."

I compete internationally and have "lost" points .... and have "won" others. It happens, get on with it. If part of kendo is to teach humility, then situations like these should be seen as opportunities to better ones-self, not be bitter. If I "win" a dodgy cut, I apologise to my opponent afterwards.

Modern-day electrified fencing is shocking (in a bad way + no pun intended!) to watch. I am sure the modern day fencers predecessors would not be happy that their tradition, in a popular context, has almost faded.

Language - you *must* have a common language (or Jargon)... I would have thought that obvious.

"Sonkyo is beautiful. I like it. The more respect the better."

Nicely put! Alex - I hope you are going to the WKC next year ... I think we have a few points in common! I may even buy you some scottish beer........

[Cemeuncex]

You do have a good point, Achilles. But! I think the way I would word it is that shiai is important, and something to strive for, but not the ultimate goal of kendo. As far as what Eiga-sensei would say, see for yourself:

Question 1: Was becoming the All-Japan and World Champion a goal for you? Or was it a result of your training in Kendo?

Eiga Sensei: Yes, it was simply a result of my training. I never thought of it as a goal. To me, my Kendo training is for my development as a person. Not necessarily is my training geared towards becoming a champion of any sort. Being a champion is merely a part of the bigger picture

From an interview found at: http://www.midwestkendo.com/eiga.htm

Last year's champion, Iwasa-sensei, said something ver similar.

"Winning and losing should not be your focus in Kendo. Kendo is about self improvement. Improving yourself as a human being. That is what is most important in Kendo."

http://www.midwestkendo.com/iwasa.htm

Perhaps another way to describe the attitudes of these champions is: I do kendo because I love it. If I happen to become the champ along the way, great. If not, for whatever reason, no biggie.

[Poeetiol]

That is correct:
Mei - Name
Shi - Calling Card (only in this context).

Meishi = Business Card.

[sztc38tg]

George, what you just said was beautiful!

You've pointed out how Kendo is more than a sport. In most sports, if not all, winning is the objective.

Your comment on humility, or how you would apologize for a bad call, reflects the philoosphy and teachings of kendo.

sorta says, kendo is more than a sport, its a lesson that can be applied in life.

Meng

[Redys]

I understand what you're saying Charlie, but that "unspoken value" that translates into a "special kind of conformity" is often at the expense of creativty and freedom.

I'm not Japanese, I'm American. I don't feel a special "unspoken value" that compels me to conform. Conformity and mindless rule following can only breed stagnation. That's not what I want to see happen in kendo.

It's all well and good to propose ONE GOVERNING INTERNATIONAL BODY (sorry for screaming), but what do you do when that body is wrong? What do you do when you disagree with its policies and decisions?

[chipkluchi]

Hi, guys. Haven't been around for a while. Sorry about that!

I know there's a lot of consternation about the future of kendo because so many Asian martial arts have been corrupted by their spread to the west. Sad but true. Karate and tae kwon do are in a mess, and judo/jujutsu isn't what it used to be, they have all lost some of their authenticity, and the biggest problem is that there are now competing organizations with different criterion for rank, etc. Suffice it to say that in these areas, many charlatans abound, the fighting spirits of the arts have been diluted.

For many, the fear that kendo may head this way is of glaring importance, and when folks start screwing around with the uniform, that's just an outward symbol. I have a little faith that kendo will remain true to itself, though. The reason for that is because judo, for example, is a grappling art, and every country has its grappling arts; therefore judo may take on the coloring of that country. With kendo, however, it is a very specific weapon and a very specific set of circumstances for using it. I don't think anyone anytime soon will start adding western sabre techniques to kendo!

Regardless, I think it's also important that kendo have ONE GOVERNING INTERNATIONAL BODY (sorry for screaming) and that we all adhere to its rules. Look what's happened to judo (another sport I play and love); there are four or five different orgs, and they don't agree on rules and ranks, and cetera.

Now, if the one intntn'l body - the ZNKR - says blue or white and that's it, I'm okay with that! An unspoken value of kendo is that unspoken value of the Japanese society, that special kind of conformity.

[casinobonusa]

Oh, not so, Achilles! Truly, I think a heartfelt application to any sport could make you a better person. But think about it. What about kumdo advances you as a person?

In the first place, you learn to work hard. Exercise also makes you better emotionally, mentally. In the next, you pursue, though it is in a much more safe environment, the art of life and death through the way of the sword. Struggle. Sure, it's a sport, but some part of you still has to think of it as a life and death struggle. Then there is competing. To try and win or fail, these things build character, both as a "loser" and a "winner." And it's all unconscious, something that just happens to you over time, rewarding you with what you put into it. Substitute "football," "baseball" or "tennis" for kumdo, and you'd come up with the same thing. IMO.

I'm not saying competition isn't important, it is. But it's one pole in the tent, so to speak. As for shimpan and the subjectivity of grading, I don't have a problem with it, both because competition isn't the top priority AND because I think it's the best system there is. No computer or electronic feedback device can do what a shimpan does, see what a shimpan sees. Also, as Scott said, the shimpan's skills evolve.

May I ask you to read Rudyard Kipling's "If,"* and consider these words by Theodore Roosevelt, which serve as the credo of the United States Judo Association?

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."



*http://www.swarthmore.edu/~apreset1/docs/if.html

[slimsex]

I guess another way to put it is that you are constantly fighting against yourself, not the opponent. Getting that men a little faster and cleaner, stronger seme, etc... is helps to cultiviate yourself since you are always trying to continuously improve oneself (kaisen). This idea that you practice in kendo helps you in every day life as well.

[Lorionasodi]

Hmmm. Well, you got me there. I think its quite possible to be creative within the context imposed by the GOVERNING - okay, no more screaming - by the governing body. After all, kendo becomes "ones own," it's just very subtle. But I see what you're saying.

[KernJetenue]

Kendokamax,

Were you on the Montreal team at Cleveland? I fought sempo for the NVKC A team and fought the Montreal sempo (it was fun, we spent a lot of time yelling French at each other). Good fight, and a tie. I just could not get a point off the guy.

[first_pr]

There is no question that Kendo is both a sport and an art. Where I think the difference lies is in the ability to train your mind and your body through Kendo practice. I fear that an over emphasis on competition is bad for the future of Kendo. Many of the adults that start kendo at university may never win a competition (except in the kyu ranks).

I they felt that the only measure of their progress was whether or not the win the game. They will soon realize they are never going to win and decide to quit. I don’t know about other experience, but I have seen many example of this phenomenon through the years.

The other drawback to training to win the game or get the (crappy waza) point as the focus is what you get out of it. Which is people pushing their shinai down with only the right hand a total of 1 cm hitting the tsuba and running around like a chicken with their head cut off.

I calculated that I practice around 30 times between each shia, if I lose in the first round am I a failure in the rest of my practice?

Just a though

D-

[pIp83Uns]

Originally posted by Achilles
If this is "more than a sport" and "winning isn't the objective" and if it's just fine to lose a point unfairly because the scoring system is subjective and inaccurate, then why do we bother to have competative tournaments and award metals and trophies? So we have a way to test ourselves and our kendo against people with whom we don't regularly practice and, presumably, don't know how to beat. That's what the "shi" in "shiai" means: testing. I always thought it was obvious that shiai is just another form of training, not the goal of training, but apparently it isn't.

If accumulating shiny baubles is the final goal of kendo, why would anyone continue to train after they've physically peaked and can no longer expect to win? Or why should they even start training in the first place if they know they'll never be a champion?

[alfredtaniypnx]

Olaf & tetsuoxb:

In re cheering at the Shoryuhai... we did try to discourage it in the past, but it is pretty much impossible. Basically, most of the spectators have no kendo background whatsoever and so they treat it like any other sports game they would attend. If you tell them to quite down, they are kind of taken aback and well, we're trying to promote kendo, not turn people off to it.

In regards to other team members cheering for their teammate, I think this is OK (I take my cue from the WKC), as long as it is what Olaf said -- "gambatte", "fai-to" etc. and not (1) coaching or (2) jeering at the opponent. And so we permit team members cheering on their mates. In the past, we did have people coaching their teammates (b/c they did not know that it is improper) and so now there is a 3-strike system. If a shimpan or court-side official hears a team coaching, the shimpan-cho issues a warning to the team captain; the third time, the entire team is disqualified.

That's as much as we can do with a bunch of enthusiastic and excited college kids!

[popillio]

Hey fellas - as someone noted earlier, I too am in favor or permitting cheering during matches. Kendo shiai, after all, has acquired a certain spectator element to it.

In the case of the that tetsuoxb (JP) noted, cheering may have been unusually rowdy, but it's somewhat expected, no? A bunch of college buddies cheering each other one is only a natural part of any game/competition setting.

My take is: as long as the cheering was limited to actual "cheers" (gambatte, go Gator Kendo Club, etc.), so be it. As long as spectators or (especially) teammates do not resort to advice or coaching, as in, "JP - go for that open kote shot!", then it shouldn't ruin the spirit of the game in any way.

Perhaps one can even think of the cheering as creating a more comfortable atmosphere for both competitors, even if one has home-court advantage and a cheerleading squad. (!) Don't you think it's much more nervous and tense when you're in a formal, traditional dojo setting, competing in shiai with another person while everyone just sits on the sidelines staring intensely?

I certainly prefer a more dynamic, energetic setting, even if people are cheering primarily for my opponent. At least there is some sense of vitality in the air, and not some somber cloud of dread looming above your head!

[XarokLasa]

Originally posted by Achilles
I understand what you're saying Charlie, but that "unspoken value" that translates into a "special kind of conformity" is often at the expense of creativty and freedom.

I'm not Japanese, I'm American. I don't feel a special "unspoken value" that compels me to conform. Conformity and mindless rule following can only breed stagnation. That's not what I want to see happen in kendo.

It's all well and good to propose ONE GOVERNING INTERNATIONAL BODY (sorry for screaming), but what do you do when that body is wrong? What do you do when you disagree with its policies and decisions? Yes, but if everyone can set their own rules, style and format, how is it still Kendo? What if I decide that at my own dojo (yeah, right), that strikes to the knee are valid. Or Meng's allows groin kicks ;-) .That dayglo orange is the only colour for bogu. That...etc etc. Would it still be right to call it Kendo?

Surely a large part of Kendo is the respect for tradition - otherwise why not go make up your own martial art? (you might even think of a better one...). Why should Kendo evolve? It is a martial art, not freeform expression afterall.

Or am I missing the point?



Dave

[duceswild]

Achilles, we'll have to hook up at the next Cleveland tourney. I'm usually there. (Wasn't this last year, though, due to commitments.)

Anyway, I see what you're saying. But may I add, you wrote, "none of the benefits you cite are unique to kumdo. I can get the same sense of hard work and triumph in the face of a challenge from boxing, a sport that is far less subjective and much less metaphysical than kumdo."

And I agree. I agreed in the earlier post, which is why I wrote: "Substitute football or baseball or tennis for kumdo and you'd still have the same thing."

As for boxing being less subjective, hmmm, there's still judges involved, and less metaphyiscal, I wouldn't say that, either. It's just that the two disciplines articulate things differently. Although, you're right, boxing tends to be more secular, although there's definitely a philosophy. However, I've known quite a few folks who take their sports quite metaphysically! Yogi Bera, for example, or Vince Lombardi?

[orapope]

- Getting rid of sankyo during matches. Bowing is enough. Sankyo is redundant.

- Allowing cheering as in other sports. This makes it better for spectators and for some competitors.

- Allowing more diversity in color and decoration in uniforms and equipment.

- Allowing the use of local language in both court commands and zekken/myong-pan identification. There's no objection reason why "hajime" is somehow superior to "begin" or whatever the Spanish equivalent is for Mexican players, etc. . .

Hmmnnn....

Ettiqutte is part of the refinement of Kendo. It's like how fencers salute each other with the foil raised to the face.

Cheering...kendo, like tennis, golf, etc requires concentration during shia...people do cheer but only after a good cut or score. If you look at the last hole in the first MAsters that tiger woods won you will notice after his drive he looks back at the crowd in anger. This was because someone had shouted during his swing. Concentration is important.

colour, decoration? Hmmnn...are we allowed to wear coloured do in shia? Hmnnn...or are we talking about coloured hakama and kendogi? Well, the nightmare I have with this is that one day we will see a kendoka in the National Champs with a pink kendogi with the Nike logo splashed on the back.

Language- Kendo is a japanese art that should retain some of its culture, its like taking away thebrazilian music in capoera and replacing it with local music.

Meng