[AndreasLV]

As far as I can tell, the pre war kata vids on KW mainsite look no different than the kata we practice today. Why is it called pre war then? Can someone please enlighten me.

[opdirorg]

Because these kata where used prior to WWII.

[ViagraPriceBuying]

But I was under the impression that the ZNKR wasnt fromed until long after the war and the reconstuction of japan?

Another question: Is the kata you were taught any different than the kata shown on the KW mainsite?

[gghrdfffhfyj]

You're correct, however kendo excited long before the ZNKR was formed. I can't answer your second question. I know very little about kendo, I'm more into iaido (although my knowledge in that department is also very little, but I'm learning).

[teergoBissono]

But I was under the impression that the ZNKR wasnt fromed until long after the war and the reconstuction of japan?

Another question: Is the kata you were taught any different than the kata shown on the KW mainsite?

The article A Brief Synopsis of the History of Kendo says the following
The Butokukai once again set up a committee to develop a set of kata which would enable effective and unified dissemination. The 5 kenjutsu masters from various ryuha tasked with this responsibility were Negishi Shingoro, Tsuji Shimpei, Naito Takaharu, Monna Tadashi, and Takano Sasaburo. In 1912, they presented the Dai Nippon Teikoku Kendo Kata (Great Japan Imperial Kendo Kata) which consisted of 7 kata of tachi versus tachi, and 3 kata of tachi versus kodachi. There were numerous changes and amendments made to the original version in the following years, but it essentially constituted what modern exponents still practise as Nihon Kendo Kata. These kata contributed greatly to the spread of kenjutsu, and provided the means to teach a unified style in the schools of Japan.

[Foriaelalse]

There's a bit of difference there, if you know what to look for....

[WUlcN1Rz]

There's a bit of difference there, if you know what to look for....

Likw what? I was wondering the same thing... Can you please give us some hints as to what's different?

Kaoru

[Brewpralgar]

Here’s part of an original text on the kata translated by me:

Kendo kata examination board

1912 Kyoto imperial University

On kata No.1

Uchidachi in left jodan
Shidachi in right jodan

Both move in to meet each other and uchi dachi looks for the right moment to strike, steps in on his right leg to strike shidachi's men.

Shidachi steps slightly back on his left leg and hits uchidachi's men.
(Modern kata says: Shidachi avoids uchidachis men and cuts men)

Shidachi brings his left leg forwards and moves into jodan showing zanshin

Uchidachi in gedan steps back twice then moves into chudan

Shidachi at the same time moves into chudan

NO COMMENTS

On kata No.2

Both uchi and shidachi in chudan move to meet each other.

Uchidachi looks for the right moment to cut shidachi's kote.

Shidachi then moves back on his left leg and takes a large step on his right leg and at the same time cuts kote and returnes to chudan.

Yano sensei: When you say chudan there is high and there is low chudan. Where is chudan supossed to be pointed to.

Nezu sensei: Chudan is to be at the opponent’s chest. This is the normal way it is performed.

Yano sensei: I suggest the chudan to be always omote.

Nezu sensei: Every one is different so it must point to the chest.

Yakayama sensei: I agree it must point to the chest. Having it low or even high would confuse things.

I can't translate all the kata at the moment but reading it suggests that the kata had to be standardized to make it clear to people and not change in a great way.
The kata here is almost the same but there are slight differences. When they finish they do not go into gedan but a low chudan. In kata No.1 they do not avoid uchidachi's cut by any large way but just step back.
The kata has almost always been the same but only interpreted in a different way by the people who practice and teach it.

[SetSnonejog]

The kata here is almost the same but there are slight differences. When they finish they do not go into gedan but a low chudan.
The kata has almost always been the same but only interpreted in a different way by the people who practice and teach it.

Anybody who takes gedan at the end of a kata is doing it wrong.


There have been prescribed changes, such as the alteration of step lengths for kata no.4, or the removal of uchidachi's transitional waki-no-kamae from no. 7, both changed in recent years.

[grinaJanoDant]

It would be interesting to know why those changes were made.

[Cricequorie]

It would be interesting to know why those changes were made.

There's a long answer... but at the end of the day, I suspect that a large part of it is due to the fact that there is no longer anybody around who knows why they did the movements as they did, so they changed them into something that could be reconciled with kendo as we know it.

[anderriter]

There's a long answer... but at the end of the day, I suspect that a large part of it is due to the fact that there is no longer anybody around who knows why they did the movements as they did, so they changed them into something that could be reconciled with kendo as we know it.

I agree but we don't need to go overboard with these changes. Otherwise the next step will be a kata with shinai and bogu. I think that it makes more sense to research why some "odd" waza was considered to be the standard many years ago. For instance in roppon me with a shinai it doesn't make sense to approach your opponent in gedan no kamae. If you have a 1 mtr long razorblade it's a different story. I don't think that these views should be overlooked and be Kendoized(?).

[*Playergirl*]

ok. Lets think of it this way. Say someone learns kata 1-7 EXACTLY as its shown in the pre war kata vids. Then they go and test. would they pass???

[TNgqZhLR]

I don't think that these views should be overlooked and be Kendoized(?).

I mentioned this in another thead once and perhaps it bears repeating. Once my sensei asked me if my shinai was a sword or a stick. As I was formulating an answer he said "It's a stick but Shhhhh, don't tell any old people in Japan. They all know but they don't want to hear it."

Kendo and the kata started out being about swords but it has subtly changed over the years. Perhaps as Fonz says, it is the "kendoization" of the art. For instance, if you strike kote and cut on the pull stoke like you would with a sword, no flags will go up. Someone might say "there was no zanshin" thinking that going forwrd and zanshin are the same thing.

Kendo, and the kata evolve and will continue to do so. It doesn't make it less budo or more sport or better or worse. It just is.

Personally, I enjoy doing kata. The changes that I am aware of, i.e. "no your hands are 1 inch different than in the old way" don't bother me and don't have to make sense to me.

[lizadax]

There's a long answer... but at the end of the day, I suspect that a large part of it is due to the fact that there is no longer anybody around who knows why they did the movements as they did

What you said here brings out another question: how did the purpose of those movement get lost? Is it because of WW2? is it because the level of emphasis on kata practice isn't what it should be?

[pkopwqzsdcvbn]

Kendo kata are there to help kendoka appreciate what it is like to use a real sword. The problem is that a lot of kendoka, who have influences on teaching these kata, do not use a sword. Therefore the kata become 'kendoised'.
If you look at the height of a traditional swordsman, due to the length of his stance and his posture, you will see a marked difference. (the prewar kata are still 'high' compared to koryu, but lower than today)
Current kendo footwork is designed to move quickly on a polished flat surface, do that outside and see how long you stand up for...or how long it is before you stub your toes...
Something else missing is that swords and shinai are different shapes, so technique is also altered as mentioned above by Ignatz. Also as kendo has been cleaned up, ie you dont win by ripping of your opponents helmet, cant strangle him with his do, knee him in the groin and butt strike with the shinai etc etc etc, you may find learning sword technique as opposed to just shinai fencing useful in understanding where kendo comes from.

[Neitteloxesia]

Kendo kata are there to help kendoka appreciate what it is like to use a real sword.

Some Sensei have always considered the shinai as a Katana. You don't step over it, you don't lean on it, you don't throw it around. You should respect it as if it is a live blade. Why is this? I think, and I have been told, that you should do this because otherwise Kendo should be renamed Shinaido. If you go a bit further like this it will end up something like Chambara.

When you, according to these Sensei, do Ji Geiko or Shiai, you should regard your shinai as a Katana. They told me that you should not do a kind of Kendo that would put yourself in danger if your shinai was a live blade. This attitude they told me eventually leads to a "clean" Kendo instead of the shiai tricks that we have mentioned and reviewed here quite a few times. Ducking and bobbing your head would leave you with a slashed shoulder for example.

So if the Kata's are being Kendoised these Sensei, and I agree with them, then we are at the start of a downhill movement. Maybe not the end of the world but downhill never the less.

[Celeliamend]

ok. Lets think of it this way. Say someone learns kata 1-7 EXACTLY as its shown in the pre war kata vids. Then they go and test. would they pass???

I think if you do it exactly like these esteemed gentlemen, they shouldn't find fault and pass with flying colors. Everything you need to see in a Kata is there. But I have it on good authority that you can fail if you put your kodachi for example somewhere else where the judges would expect it. So maybe we should try this out just for fun.

[uC4F0NVL]

cant strangle him with his do

Boy I love that technique. Matsubara sensei still does it I think.

and as for

ok. Lets think of it this way. Say someone learns kata 1-7 EXACTLY as its shown in the pre war kata vids. Then they go and test. would they pass???

I'd sure like to hear from some of the 5, 6 and 7 dans on the forum about this. My guess is if you were testing 1, 2 or 3 dan you would pass, 4 dan maybe and 5 on up you would fail.

[Bxbhtjnr]

I think if you do it exactly like these esteemed gentlemen, they shouldn't find fault and pass with flying colors. Everything you need to see in a Kata is there. But I have it on good authority that you can fail if you put your kodachi for example somewhere else where the judges would expect it. So maybe we should try this out just for fun.

I'll do it next time, provided that if I fail you'll pay the fee. Throw in a little extra and I'll even use my lilac Tsuba, purple Tsuru and sky blue chichigawa along with my purple tie-dye tenugui.