[Kneedycrype]

I stumbled over this on the net. thought it might stop this thread that appears on an almost daily basis amongst sword groups the world over.
So just point the person to this link:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

Hope this frees up some bits in someones PC !!

cheers michael

[KkJvrG4d]

good find, although the article has been posted before. Nontheless, thank you for the effort. I actually found the article to be creditble but not so accurate.

[dushappeaps]

I find his articles to be very biased towards his obvious passion towards European style swordsmanship. The article about the Rapier and Katana is very ill-informed, at least the info on the use of the Katana is, I can't speak for the Rapier. He seems to underestimate the Katana's excellent thrusting ability and doesn't seem to take into account the curvature of the Katana and it's uses.

His analogy about who are better soldiers, Jungle fighters or Ski troopers? was well-worded and the subject should have been left at that. The subject of East v West can not be accurately debated and nor does it need to be. Leave it to the 4 year olds to decide it with their plastic toys.

[haittiweerved]

Leave it to the 4 year olds to decide it with their plastic toys.

agreed...

[vladekad]

This debate will never be settled until we can use Star Trek style holodecks to conduct a real simulation

[24MurinivaMak]

I actually enjoyed reading this but I do have some observations.

The author did seem to try to come across as being impartial and unbiased but it seemed to me that he know more about Feudal European weaponry than Japanese. He would mention how much more versatile European weapons compared to how they would be portrayed in Hollywood etc but did not apply the same criteria to Japanese swords.

I did concur with his view that the Japanese sword has become over romanticised and we do not apply this to equally well crafted swords of our own heritage. Anyone here seen a Saxon longsword? They are truly beautiful and they twisted the metal to strengthen it which gives it a beautiful natural pattern in a similar way to a folded Shinken.

I also found his arguments skewed with regard to Knights and Samurai in combat situations.
Whilst I agreed that the Samurai has developed considerably more kudos than the Knight I have never been convinced that he was necessarily a better soldier. The author didn't seem to want to get involved in tactics - something the Europeans worked extensively on from the Greeks and Romans onwards.

But I will conclude with the observation that there is a common factor between knights and Samurai - the Mongols. The mongols fought against both. They were defeated by the Samurai, and we all know this was by providence as much as ability. Yet, they managed to defeat a much larger army of Teutonic (mostly German, Russian and Polish) knights on the fields of Eastern Europe. I read somewhere that this was not even the main Mongol army but a part of it under the command of a Mongol general called Subudai.

So, whilst we cannot say who is the better soldier, we can hazard a guess at the odds received at the local bookies.

[truck]

This debate will never be settled until we can use Star Trek style holodecks to conduct a real simulation

Doubt that will work, I suggest we build a time machine, kidnap a knight and a samurai, let them fight to the death and we send the winner home

[erubresen]

Doubt that will work, I suggest we build a time machine, kidnap a knight and a samurai, let them fight to the death and we send the winner home

Even that could be problematic. What if you pick up Musashi as the samurai, and is left with Orlando Bloom as the knight?

The thing with the Mongols was a very interesting post. Questions though, wasn't the attempted Japanese invasion AFTER the height of Mongol military strength? As opposed to when they fought Europe, they were closer to their peak. Also, wasn't the Japanese nearly defeated, and the kamikaze was the result of their defeat? For nomads, wouldn't it be easier for Mongols to walk over to Europe instead of swimming to Japan? Finally, in terms of tactics, the Japanese are better suited for fighting the Mongols no?

[Oxzzlvpg]

Finally, in terms of tactics, the Japanese are better suited for fighting the Mongols no?

Actually, the samurai, who were used to one-on-one fights between soldiers got a major shock when they encountered the Mongols the first time around. They managed to turn the tide, but it took some time. Arrggh, it's too early for me to be playing history geek.
Hey, 110 posts! Woo-hoo!

[ruforumczspam]

they managed to defeat a much larger army of Teutonic (mostly German, Russian and Polish) knights on the fields of Eastern Europe. I read somewhere that this was not even the main Mongol army but a part of it under the command of a Mongol general called Subudai.

Teutonic polish or russian knights?! Not to mention there was no Russia at that that...
Anyway there is some info on mongol invasion of Europe.

[Grieryaliny]

I feel he was well spoken, honest and sincere. Sure, it's an over-played scenario. However, he does point out many of the difficulties in this equation. I agree, he is really only of expert knowledge in terms of European swordsmanship. Still, he does point-out the impossibility of our contemplations on such matters. He's just lookin' through the windows in his own house. We all measure the world by our own fixations. (I mean, by our own traditions.) He is a gentleman, who tries to stay, more or less, objective through out his observations. Anyone can post a responce on his web page. As long as it isn't vulgar or petty, I think they welcome replies. Overall, thank God people still practice the way of the sword, regardless of culture or lineage!

Later, Jon Palombi

[YonkFiorc]

Wait, I forgot to ask something important. Are the knights jedi knights?

[Blaxastij]

Some call me the Dark Knight. Does that mean I'm a knight? If so, what does my practicing JSA say about the "Knights vs. Samurai" argument? Has the world gone topsy-turvy? I'm getting ready to hang up my cape and tights.

[vosteglog]

Teutonic polish or russian knights?! Not to mention there was no Russia at that that...
Anyway there is some info on mongol invasion of Europe.

There was no Germany either but I didn'y want to make a long posting even longer so I cut a few corners by adding modern Dermographics to History.

Apologies if this has given you sleppless nights

[johobuo]

Apologies if this has given you sleppless nights

Not at all. Btw, have you heard of those fierce chinese and singaporean samurais in the service of some maharaja who defeated Alex the Great?

[WaydayFep]

Not at all. Btw, have you heard of those fierce chinese and singaporean samurais in the service of some maharaja who defeated Alex the Great?

Weren't they the ones who fought the Roman Zulus at the battle of Austerlitz

[jobsfancy]

John Clements is a serious student of European martial traditions and tries to be as objetive as possible from, as Jon said, his biased point of view, considering his interest and knowledge of European swordsmanship and, perhaps, incomplete or innacurate information on samurai arts and weapons.

The very same article mentions the futility of such an attempt, but tries to at least place the variables involved in their proper dimension (the warriors, the weapons, the experience, the armor, etc.).

If useless, I think one can give credit that it doesn't pretend to give definitive answer to the question, but it's a very good approach to analyse and set a somewhat objetive background for especulation on the matter.

By the way, just saw that Clements is to give a seminar on Renaissance martial arts in Mexico City next month.

[suilusargaino]

Even that could be problematic. What if you pick up Musashi as the samurai, and is left with Orlando Bloom as the knight?

Orlando Bloom is a real knight







... bummer

[K0aM7urg]

Oh My God. That just makes me wonder.. who would merge as winner in a duel between Orlando Bloom and Tom Cruise .

[satthackacibe]

Oh My God. That just makes me wonder.. who would merge as winner in a duel between Orlando Bloom and Tom Cruise .

Neither, because Chuck Norris would magically appear and smite them both.