[Adimondin]

Kaoru, I'm sorry to hear it didn't go well. I think you just have to balance how well you like kendo against your opinion of your instructor and his policies. Also evaluate whether you'll be able to mend your relationship with your instructor, should you decide to return. One thing I would advise you to do is to visit the other dojo, even though you can't attend there. I think you need to see how other clubs operate just for comparison's sake. I note there's dojo in Minneapolis, St. Paul and Rochester in your state.

[jincomplet]

Some of the profit dojang do the same thing or may be there is some standard or uniformity your teacher want in the class, same colors, same materials?

If you are still young and want to buy the bogu you want, blame it on your Mother when you brought the bogu to dojang My mother bought this for me and I can not do anything about it

[__CVineXPharm__]

At our dojang the Master, fits you, orders it and you buy it from him. Did I pay too much for too little - probably. Do I care - not really. All of the students have the same basic stuff. Without cost I have been given everything from a shinai case, numerous tenegui from competitions all over the country and even shinai. The bottom line for me is the quality of the instruction, the attention I get and can I afford it. The cheapest price on everything is never the real issue.

[EmpokemyMok]

I always talk with my money. If the situation is too aggravating - QUIT.
If the proprietor is too dogmatic and money hungry - QUIT. Then write him and tell him why. Suggest if he changes his policy you will reconsider. Another approach is to ask around and see if others feel the same way. I'll bet if a dozen students were to leave over this issue - he would reconsider. But then, do you really want this jerk as a teacher?

[miel]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add, that I never got a chance to ask him about the bogu he had, because of the way he approached me in class. The idea flew out of my mind right then and there. I had intended to ask, to be polite.

[krek-sikUp]

Many places help students to purchase equipments through their schools with the purpose of cutting the cost and get the right things but do not force the students to go through their dojo, dojang. If the teacher force the students to purchase equipments through him, then I smell some dead fishes there.

[Niobaralegra]

Hi everybody,

I really appreciate how helpful you all are. That made me feel better about this whole thing.

Atama, I don't know how I did maintain my composure. Somehow, I managed to seal off all emotion. I had been in seiza putting on school bogu when this teacher and I had the conversation. So, I had to look up at him. A bit intimidating...

sminki, I asked him what federation the dojang belonged to, and he said it was the International Kumdo-Kumbup Federation. I asked him if it had a website, and he said no, and that it was "directly out of Korea." His exact words. I've never even heard of it, and he also said that that one guy, Master Chan Joo Jung, on the site doing the cutting-remember which one? is the head of it. So, it sounds like it isn't legit to me. Oh, and I wrnt back to look, and I see what you mean about the two swords. It looks silly. I agree with you. It should be displayed with a wakizashi, and not a Chinese sword. He isn't a member of any of the standard legit organisations. Oh yeah, and I think you're right about the
level of quality of instruction. Even though I've only practiced for four mobnths, I can see bad technique in his cuts, and not to mention the bad footwork. I've been going to a lot of Kendo websites lately doing some checking. He also never practices with us-just demonstrates and tha's all. I only found out that most sensei do practice with their students when I discovered this website. He never cleans the dojang floor, either, and each week, I have to fight the urge to ask him for a broom to sweep the floor. I'm afraid that if I did ask him for it, he'd get insulted. If I wore hakama and went into seiza on that floor, I'd feel pretty insulted because I respect my uniform. I use my TKD Gi form when I used to practice it a long time ago, and still hate to kneel on that floor in it. Oh, something else interesting... ALL the Kumdo students except me, take his TKD classes. I never will, because every time I watch the black belt class before Kumdo practice, I want to laugh because their technique is so bad, so I end up not watching so I don't. I hold a blue belt in ATA Tae Kwon Do(Before they changed the belt levels a little, so all I had left was red, before I could earn my black belt. I got really lucky... the teachers I had there were just amazing, and etiquette was a very integral part of class.) so I have a good idea what they do not know. And, like you described in your first dojang, he has so many students in his TKD classes, it isn't even funny. Too many, in fact. It's dangerous to have so many in one class. He also has another dojang in another town not far from mine. Anyway, I think that makes me stand out because I don't take TKD like everybody else. He tried once to get me to and I turned him down saying I didn't have time. Anyway, thank you for looking into this for me. I appreciate it!

Oh, believe me, guys, I'd love to tell him what a disgraceful and dishonorable person he is, and not only that, he lied to me and my sister-in-law. He really lost face and he is shameful indeed. He just has no respect or honor, and that to me, is just shameful and appalling. But, I won't because it won't solve the issue and besides, being unkind to him, is not worth it. I won't be like him. How am I supposed to respect him now? I lost my respect for him yesterday.

I wish very much to go to another dojo, because I love Kendo. Well, at least I get to go to the Kendo seminar in Charleston, South Carolina this October. My parents are going with me, because they love the place, and while they sight-see, I get to learn something! Anybody going there? It's the 11th and 12th. Check the AUSKF site about it. So, ha, ha, I'm ordering bogu anyway, because this is stupid.

I may stay until November, when it will be time to pay for the next three months, and then leave, so I can practice foe the October seminar that I am not telling him about. Also, there is a new kid that sticks to me like glue. So, I'd feel bad about leaving this new kid who is so shy it isn't even funny. He's 15, and copies everything I do. I feel sorry for him because of this guy now.

Anyway, I'd love to get a new Kendo dojo up here. What a shame... Oh well. My sister-in-law did say that she might take me down to the other dojo in Minneapolis to see what it was like. It IS a long drive though... I hope we can go. It won't be this week though. I hope we can. If not, oh well. I know it's a long drive. I'd beam myself there if I could though!

I'll tell you guys if I get to go.

Kaoru

[artofeyyy]

More I think about it, the more it upsets me that shit like this is going on. Obviously this is a case of someone simply trying to profit using kumdo/kendo. Since he cannot get the necessary credentials from a real kumdo school, he'll simply go through the fast track process set up by these fake organizations (the fake organizations typically set up the fast track to kodansha process in order to rapidly gain popularity). I wonder if he even knows how many years he would have to train with a legitimate school to attain 4 dan. Assuming that you can reach shodan in 1 year which I believe is very aggressive, it would still take 8 years and from what I can see, he "trained kumdo" since September 2002.

Ugh...

[b3JOkwXL]

Judging by what you've said and what the website looks like, you're probably better off without him. If you can convince your folks to get you to Minneapolis every couple of weeks or even once a month, you're probably better off. You could then train on your own with what you're given on your trips. Alternately, you can find some other people who are interested and form a study group to practice together, supplemented by group trips to the dojo or possibly visits to Brainerd from your new instructor. If your instructor approves, maybe some instructional videotapes like the ones they're hawking at e-bogu could be of help.

[RokgroofeTeme]

Kaoru,

Keep in mind that unless you're buying hand-made stuff, there's really no difference between Japanese and Korean made bogu. You'll just pay more for the Japanese made due to the higher labor costs. Many of the machine made bogus sold in Japan are imported from Korea anyway. So I think you're just a bit misinformed in making the decision that you definitely want a Japanese made bogu (unless you're going for the $4000+ hand-made bogu).

Anyway, buying bogu through one's dojo/dojang is a fairly common practice. The senseis usually have a place that they constantly deal with which drives costs down for the student. Plus, the senseis usually know more about sizing and such so you're more likely to get a better fit. Although I have seen places where the sensei actually marks up the price of bogu as much as 100%, but that's quite rare.

Although we are not all rich lawyers like OW, I generally agree with him about placing more importance on quality of learning than the lowest cost. I do see how you can be offended a little bit by getting different answers from your teacher though. I have never seen any teacher actually forbidding the use of equipment unless it was bought at that dojo/dojang.

[KeettyGlots]

My only addition would be that I always try and do business with local merchants, who I know, and who stand behind their products and give superior service.

In the kendo market there isn't really such a service though is there. Your local general martial arts supplier probably has shinai but that's about it. Your instructor selling a few sets of bogu each year to his students is a different matter IMHO. The closest thing to local you have in the US really are the fellows with the internet/mail order business that is at least located in the US. If you deal with bogubag, e-bogu, eguchi, swordstore and the like at least you can communicate in english with someone who knows what they're talking about and can hopefully solve problems a little better than the guy in Korea or Japan can.

But I digress (shocker I know). In our club I handle bogu purchases and everyone goes through me. If they like they can do it themselves but most people don't have the experience to do that. Even if you want to purchase from one of the online businesses, it makes sense to consult your instructor for guidance.

[QQQQQ-Trek]

"I think you just have to decide whether you like the school and the teacher well enough to fork over the dough. If not, say your goodbyes and hook up with the local kendo dojo if there is one."

Good point and practical advice. My only addition would be that I always try and do business with local merchants, who I know, and who stand behind their products and give superior service. I won't travel to the "Big Stores" just to get the lowest price. If you like your teacher and can afford the freight, I'd go with flow. If you have a doubt - try somewhere else.

[tweriaroats]

why would there be a confrontation?

The suggestion was to take him to task over contractual obligations. If you as a student have to go to your instructor and say "look here, in section 4, subsection 2, paragraph c it says I can buy my equipment wherever I want", that's a confrontation. You're forcing him to do something he's already told you he doesn't want to do - you said he was clear in his e-mail to you. You'd be technically in the right but from a relationship POV it's already on the way downhill. If you bring up the fact that you did a little digging through your sister-in-law, that's only going to make matters worse.

I'd suggest bringing the matter up as if you didn't understand what he told you. "I'd like to purchase bogu set X from this company, do you approve of this model for me to use?" kinda thing. This gives him a chance to clarify, and maybe explain the reasons for his policy. If he shoots you down, you have to decide if you want to practice badly enough to overlook this. Because if you force the issue any further, I think it could go badly.

[Ephejvll]

Atama,

I don't know why you insist on continuing to make such discriminating remarks against "kumdo" as opposed to "kendo". I thought I cleared these issues (at least partially) for you, but apparantly not. This is a dojang involving an American teacher whose kumdo/kendo legitimacy is clearly in question and I, who have dealt with numerous kumdo/kendo dojos both in Korea and the U.S. can state that this clearly isn't the norm, but for in certain isolated cases involving very profit-driven greedy people (who, mind you, exist everywhere). It's unfortunate that one or two isolated incidents like this can muddy the water for kumdo/kendo.

[freevideoandoicsI]

At our dojang the Master, fits you, orders it and you buy it from him. Did I pay too much for too little - probably. Do I care - not really. All of the students have the same basic stuff. Without cost I have been given everything from a shinai case, numerous tenegui from competitions all over the country and even shinai. The bottom line for me is the quality of the instruction, the attention I get and can I afford it. The cheapest price on everything is never the real issue.

So Old Warrior, your school is only for the rich kids and people without financial limited like you. Teacher and bussiness man don't miss very well in the sam glass. If the teacher has to live on his teaching, charge the fee, I don't have problem with that, I just don't like to have to buy things from the teacher to be able to attend the school. If I am not allowed into the dojang because I wear the bogu not from him, then I am better go somewhere else or don't go anywhere at all.

[golozhopik]

Kaoru,

I haven't been practicing Kendo for that long so it's really not my place to criticize an instructor, so please consider this as just a few "observations" that I made just by looking at the pictures on the website.....

If you look at the top picture, the bogu is worn is incorrectly. The hakama is hiked up and the front is higher than the back; instead of the other way around. Also, the Men is tied incorrectly because the length of the strings after being tied is uneven.

In the other 'Mind, Body' picture, it is supposed to be a picture of someone striking men using fumikomi, but why is the left leg in front of the right? Even if the pic was taken just at the moment the left leg just happened to be in front incidentally, why would a Kendo Sensei put that up on the web as a representative picture of their dojo? Also, the guy on the left is wearing the men incorrectly...His Tenugui is sticking out the back...

The final observation that I see is that everyone in the pictures is holding the shinai in the "Shini-Te" or "Machi Te".

You may ask, What does this have anything to do with the quality of instruction? OR What do I wish to express with these observations?

My point is very simple....If your instructor cannot teach you the most simple and basic of things in Kendo, how can you expect him to take your Kendo to the next Level as well as take you (as a person) to the next level physically, mentally, or spiritually?

Just a thought....

amatsuda
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/sjkendo

[TOD4wDTQ]

The problem for Kaoru is that he has a visual impairment that prevents him from driving. So the 2 hour travel time is more of an impediment than it normally would be. He has a hard choice to make but if his instructor continues to treat him badly his choice will have been made for him.

Someone referred to a webpage for this school, I haven't seen a link posted. What's the url?

[Sarah Armstrong]

Kaoru,

that is most unfortunate. I hope this doesn't sour you all together about kendo. I would agree; go visit the other dojo for comparison. Also getting some feed back from some of the other students couldnt hurt. I dont know about ganging up and quitting though... that sound more like a dojo mutiny.
The only other thing I could suggest is, maybe if it is reasonable (and possible) just buy your gi and shinai from him so you can practice there, untill you are able to go another dojo. Then you could choose your own bogu. Then again, from what you describe this guy sounds like a dick and may hold a grudge.

[antipenq]

If you're in the US, and the teacher wants uniformity, and you are paying for classes, any requirements to buy certain armor or through the school, etc should be spelled out in the contract. If there is no contract, get what you want. As long as its in good repair he has no grounds to complain.
However, you might want to first ask him why he thinks you should buy through the dojo and not on your own, plus show him a description of what you plan on getting. He may have some valid points for you to consider.

[popandopulus]

So ok, what I'd like to ask him now, is what happens if a new Kenshi comes from another dojo. Do they have to get all new bogu, etc. This is stupid, neh? Oh, how I wish I could grow new eyes and get to drive. I know where I'd go. The sad thing is, I really love Kendo(Well, I'm doing Kumdo because it was the only thing available.), and the nearest dojo is two hours away. Sigh...

Anyway, this is what the result so far is. What do you guys think about it??

Kaoru

Check out the other dojo first and see if you like what you see and from there make a choice.
It would also depend on the quality of the teaching at your current dojo, but (no offense) that could be a bit harder to judge at your stage...one thing is for sure, is that currently nothing is gained by pushing the issue further with him. (However tempting that may be).
It's not an easy situation and I can see your dilemma. I would be tempted to tell him to stuff it and possible take it up with your local paper, but then you would never be able to practice there again.
OTOH, if you really do want to continue practicing and the other dojo is not really practical, take a look at the bogu is selling and see if the prices are reasonable and if so, jump ship when the opportunity arises (and then make a stink about it ). It would suck having to do that, I know.
Talk it over with your parents, consider the alternatives (maybe other martial arts?) and think about it for a couple of weeks.

Jakob