[lesso73]

Hi,

Supernils, no, I didn't misunderstand him. Wish I had, but I didn't. He sent it in an e-mail. Also, yeah, I'm going to politely do as Kendomushi and xvikingx suggested and just see what he says. It can't hurt. But, I also don't like being told that if I don't get what he has, then I can't use it. That's just wrong. Etiquette right out the window, there. And, I don't like lack of etiquette. Oh yeah, xvikingx, good idea to leave out the part about my sister-in-law. And, lnguyen, I know what you mean...

Gendzwill-sensei, why would there be a confrontation? It is only the person who was irrational who would even start one over this. And, if a teacher is as unkind to treat a student that way just because the student didn't buy the stuff they had access to, they should not be even teaching. I don't like arguing, and I'm not about to let it go that far. Arguing is silly. A teacher is a teacher because he/she likes to help a student learn regardless of what they buy or don't buy from the teacher. If he decides to behave this way tonight, I will be ashamed for him, since he would be the one to lose face over something petty. Since I got two conflicting statements from him, that being in the e-mail he sent me and what he told my sister-in-law, he already has lost face. Ah well. I will see what he says tonight.

And, I have no other option for a dojo. Kendo is two hours away, and I can't drive myself there. That's the nearest dojo around besides the one I go to now.

I'll tell you all what he says...

Kaoru

[Payodcapy542fro]

I have no experiences of Korean Dojangs, run like businesses, and there are two sides to every story; but if it is as you describe I think as Neil said above; after this it is going to be difficult of you to respect your teacher, and it doesn't sound like he respects you.

If the relationship has broken down I would just leave and find somewhere you are happier. Unfortunately you have geographic problems, but I would rather travel 2 hours and train with someone I respect. It may seem extreme, but there are plenty of people who get up at 5am to travel across Tokyo for asa-geiko in a dojo because they like the teacher there.
You need to trust and respect your teacher.

[anconueys]

International Kumdo Kumbup Federation? Directly out of Korea?

I have never used profanity in this forum, but am about to. That shit is more like directly out of someone's ass. There is an International Kumdo Association, which "trains" and "develops" "authentic Korean kumdo". That might be what he belongs to. Note that this International Kumdo Federation is largely made up of TKD professionals who have little or no background in real kendo/kumdo and is, in my opinion, Mickey Mouse bullshit organization. Actually, saying that is an insult to Mickey Mouse.

You might as well leave now, as I now have NO confidence in this guy's kendo (highlighted by the fact that he does not practice with his students). In addition, his association with International Kumdo Kumbup Federation directly out of Korea means that any and all rank/dan will not be recognized by kendo/kumdo schools.

One might say that "hey, this guy just belongs to a different federation. So what if the dan isn't recognized by any IKF (International Kendo Federation - the rightful governing body of kendo/kumdo as we know it)? Martial art is martial art." While there's a degree of truth in that statement and I don't mean to automatically discredit other sword arts which is not IKF related. But in this case, he claims to do kumdo and employs use of kumdo/kendo terminology as well as equipment, etc. which is a clearly a ripoff/imitation situation and it is better not to learn anything at all rather than to learn from a ripoff/imitation type school.

[HBPujWBe]

Hi everybody,

I'm a girl. Ha, ha! I'm very small, and only 5' tall. And, I look extremely young for my age, too-around 13-15.

Kaoru

[ulnanVti]

http://www.tae-kwon-do.bz/pages/725734/index.htm

[Enliseell]

Hey Sminki,

Chilled men, what you need now is stop reading this thread, going out side for a fresh air. After that if you are still pissed, then you can grab your monitor and throw it outside. It is even better if you challenge this guy and we will buy air ticket for you.

[movlabk]

I would have to agree with what kendomushi says. I suggest just going back and talking to him straight up about it. (leave out the part about your sister in law though) If you have to beat around bush with your sensei, then I dont think its worth being there.

[ardsdelinq]

Hi Kaoru,

Good for you that you love Kendo. In my dojo, there is a guy used to come from St. Louis that is about 5 hours to Chicago. There is a Sensei driving from Indiana. I have to drive 50 minutes to the practice. I know we have the access, you don't. However, I just try to cheer you up and tell you that if you try hard to find your driver, the reward is unbelievable. If you can't go to the dojo 3 times a weeks, 1 time a week is ok too, or even 1 every other weeks is still marvelous. You still can learn alot more than you learn right now.

You are a girl? holy cow, a girl with a shinai? that is dangerous. Just kidding.

Lan Nguyen

[encumeterz]

Hi kaoru

Commiserations ! - this is a broken situation whatever way you look at it
your options are clearly limited as the guys have explained above
though this kind of this does happen (obviously) it is rare (maybe not so obvious)

What are the numbers involved ? - in any case 5 or 6mm armour isnt anything special and isnt worth too much upset

If you really cant train elsewhere then youre stuck for now - give in and smile sweetly, learn as much technique as you can and learn ettiquete and any philosphical content from someone else because anything youre going to get from this guy is probably not worth having

as you can see from this thread the wider kendo / kumdo community is not like this one guy & I visited the guys at Rochester whilst on a business trip - they were great.

best of luck !

[GypeFeeshyTes]

If you're in the US, and the teacher wants uniformity, and you are paying for classes, any requirements to buy certain armor or through the school, etc should be spelled out in the contract. If there is no contract, get what you want. As long as its in good repair he has no grounds to complain.

If it gets down to the point where you're arguing with your teacher over what he's contractually allowed to control in his dojo, it's over. How on earth would you train in an atmosphere like that? What makes you think he'll help a student much in class after such a confrontation?

Like it or not, many kumdo dojang are run as businesses not hobbies. I think you just have to decide whether you like the school and the teacher well enough to fork over the dough. If not, say your goodbyes and hook up with the local kendo dojo if there is one.

[Brainpole]

Hi everybody,

I am going to be ordering bogu, and I e-mailed our Kumdo teacher, asking him what he thought of either 5mm or 6mm stitch, and that I had been thinking about getting it from bogubag.com, after having looked at a lot of different places. Well, he wrote back and said to get the economy(?) bogu, and that any bogu or other things such as uniform and shinai had to be bought through the dojang or I would not be allowed to use it in class. So, I told my mother, and she had my sister-in-law, whom he has never met and doesn't know she is my relative, go into the dojang to meet him today, and she asked him abut Kumdo, and then after asking everything else, asked him about buying bogu after 3 months, and if she could buy it anywhere she wanted, besides the dojang. He told her that she could buy it from any place she wanted to, and did not have to buy from him.

So, now I am very unhappy with him. I have not said anything yet, anf my mother says to go buy it anyway, because the stuff I want, is Japanese made. I do not want to buy Korean bogu-no offense meant to that. I just have been reading here and at other places that Japanese bogu may be made better. Not only that, there is a particular 5mm set I really want at bogubag. I do not like the idea of being told I have to purchase stuff through him or nobody else. I think it is impolite.

What do you all make of this?? I have never heard of such a thing. All I did, was ask his opinion on which stitching is better to get, and I get this go buy an economy set, reply. That isn't what I had asked him, either.

So, any ideas?? I think I will go buy it anyway, because I'd rather be well protected and safer than be sorry. I am very small, and want good bogu.

So, what do all of you think about this?? Is this even right for him to try to make me buy from him? Now, I would not have minded him suggesting I look at what he had to offer, but then allowing me to buy where I wanted if I didn't like it, but this? No. I haven't replied to him yet, because I don't know what to say. Maybe I approached the thing wrong? I still want to buy what I found.

Thank you very much for reading my post.

Kaoru

[beatrisio]

Kaoru,
If you are absolutely positive that you didn't misunderstand what you teacher said I think he's way out of line. I would not trust a person/teacher who's trying to rip me off like that. If I had a choice I would join another dojo.
Take care.

[ticskebasse]

I'll be perfectly honest with you. I firmly believe that I paid too much ($500) for my bogu (bought from the Master). But, at the time, I didn't have a clue what I needed, what size I was, how it was supposed to fit, or even where I would look to buy it. If my instruction was poor and I was thinking of quitting, the cost might be a source of irritation. However, the degree of pleasure I have gotten from the last 10 months of learning/training is immeasurable. Whatever the "extra" amount I paid, it was well worth it, as the equipment is serviceable, it fits and it has allowed me to train. I now know the value of better stuff and where I can get it. If I ever acheive shodan, I will treat myself to some higher quality stuff.

[OEMCHEAPSOFTDOWNLOAD]

Kaoru,

I just looked at the website again. Your instructor's TKD credentials (although there's no mentioning of his dan level) seems somewhat legitimate, as he seems to have gotten certificates, etc. from Kukkiwon, which is like a central operating center for the TKD governing body. However, he seems to have made his own TKD association and I don't know how to feel about that.

As per his kumdo practice, there's no mentioning of any dan, no mentioning of who the people are that he trained with, etc. Korea has a fairly small kumdo community and most kodansha (higher dan senseis) are known by their names and have recognizable faces (at least to me who actually follows kumdo community in Korea). I didn't see anyone that I'd recognize (albeit that I don't know everyone who does kumdo in Korea). Plus, I get nervous when there's no mentioning of any federation/governing body, people's dan ranks, etc. and when people are just referred to as "grandmaster" such and such. Lastly, reading a bit into details, you see that kumdo picture which he took with the "grandmaster" in Korea? You see the sword stand with two swords? KKA, which is the IKF recognized kendo body in Korea would not display double-edged Chinese sword along with a katana like that. That could mean your guy is associated with other kumdo federations not recognized by the IKF such as Hankook Kumdo or Haedong Kumdo. While nothing may be wrong with such organizations, keep in mind that it's different kendo/kumdo than what this forum practices and any similarities are immitations.

Ask him what kendo federations he's assiciated with. Even if he's gotten his dan elsewhere, if he's associated with All U.S. Kendo Federation, I guess it is okay. If he tells you he's got his own kumdo association, watch out.

[BWJfEkOB]

So, I told my mother, and she had my sister-in-law, whom he has never met and doesn't know she is my relative, go into the dojang to meet him today, and she asked him abut Kumdo, and then after asking everything else, asked him about buying bogu after 3 months, and if she could buy it anywhere she wanted, besides the dojang. He told her that she could buy it from any place she wanted to, and did not have to buy from him. (*snip*)

This is shameful....some one has been lied too, you or your sister-in-law! Find out if his rank is legit first, because if hes not IKF reckognized then your wasting your time anyway. Also find out who else in your do-jang has had to buy bogu from the club and who was given the vito to purchase outside the club, i think you'll find a double standard here.

You have the right to learn kendo without being treated like consumer cattle, remember Kaoru, kendo has nothing to do with money, this is a rare case, dont be discouraged you'll pervail if you really want too!

I will think some more on the issue, you have a real situation here.

[Patabeamn]

Kaoru,

This now smells. Believe me I once belong to such a dojang for approximately a year, paid $800 for a set of bogu which would otherwise cost around $400. This was all because I absolutely trusted in the teacher there. He was not unlike your current guy. Mainly a TKD instructor by trade who had expanded to kendo. Let me give you my two cents on the situation.

My guy was a TKD 9 dan or something and kumdo 5 dan. I admit that the kendo(kumdo) basics taught there were good and that it gave me a good basis to continue my training at my current dojo. But this guy was after profits (not that I'm against profitting the dojo/dojang I belong to, but when the mark-ups are as much as double the original price, it's getting a bit outta hand.). Not only that, he was into expanding his business, so he had about 3 dojos at one point and virtually left the location I belonged to without a legitimate instructor (shodans who practiced at that locations taught class, hell, I was 3 kyu at the time and sometimes I led class). This guy also "encouraged" people to pay in advance for 6 months and 1 year. Despite the fact that I still had credit for months more, I packed up and left and found a true teacher. It was somewhat stressful and frustrating situation though. I was lucky to have other dojos nearby.

Anyway, I have nothing against dojo/dojang making profit. If I have a great teacher, I'll do my best to see that the dojo profits. I also have nothing against paying in advance. In fact, I prefer it as it make me not have to worry about paying someone on a monthly basis. These aren't the issues in and of themselves. It's when these things are blatantly done at no regard for the students such as in my previous dojang and in your case that it becomes a problem.

I'm usually careful about blasting anyone, especially if I don't know them well. But I've looked at your dojang's website and it smells of my previous dojang (with possibly even lesser quality of kendo than my previous dojang). The floor at the dojang is that bouncy floor designed for TKD. It's clear that this guy is expanding onto kendo from his "formal" trade of TKD to make some additional bucks. And what better way to make a lot of profit than expensive bogu? Promotion test fees (every three months or so) and bogu are where the money's at. And despite claiming to be 4 dan, this guy looks like McDojo. I'm sorry.

Once again, nothing against buying stuff from the dojang/dojo. Nothing against anything as long as the teacher is good. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of faith in your guy here, especially after seeing the website. Ask him where he got his kumdo dan. If it's not Korean Kumdo Association or All U.S. Kendo Federation or any federation recognized by the IKF, he should have no business teaching kumdo/kendo as this forum knows it.

Lastly, as many people say, you might want to just suck it up and put up with it as long as you can in the interest of at least establishing some basics in kendo (provided that it's legitimate kendo). In that case, you should still ask what quality bogu he would get for you (6mm, 5mm, 3mm, 2mm, etc.) and compare his price vs. the Internet retailer prices. At least that will give you an idea of how much profit he's making from you.

It's an unfortunate situation. I assure you that most kendo/kumdo instructors are not like this at all, but you seem to have somehow landed a real character here. I admit that I may be reacting a bit harshly to this guy as I have once belonged to a dojo not too unlike yours. Anyway, hope you can work this situation out.

[untostaronaf]

Kaoru
Your sensie is a total disgrace (not to mention a money grabbing wanker) the role of a teacher is to nurture and aid a student in learning, not force them into buying their product and definatley not to embarass a student in front of his class mates.

It is unfortunate that you don't have another dojo to move to and I truly hope this dosen't put you off kendo. I personally would probably write to my kendo association regarding this matter however from what I've read your situation seems to be common place in kumdo dojangs. I don't think it matters where you get your bogu the important thing is it fits and its the set you want.

I can imagine how pissed you must have been being ask to leave, I probably wouldn't have had your composure. The dilema is, in the word of the clash "should I stay or should I go".

P.S I guess there is a difference between kendo and kumdo after all ...kendo is about learning without discrimination and kumdo is for the rich who don't mind paying over the odds because they are told to.


Lisa Westhead

[investmentonlinev2006x]

"P.S I guess there is a difference between kendo and kumdo after all ...kendo is about learning without discrimination and kumdo is for the rich who don't mind paying over the odds because they are told to."

Now, now, young lady, let's calm down and get a grip on logic. An idiot "kendo" teacher in Jerkwater, USA doesn't represent the world of Kumdo. And the rich are not to be pilloried because they spend their money in a lawful manner. Kendo, is marvelous, healthy pleasure and there is no reason to be associated with one who would pervert its essence. If that means that our poster will have to go elsewhere or wait to begin his study - its not a tragedy.

[Vznvtthq]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot...

I did a little research on the web. Do what I did... type in "Master Chan Joo Jung" (The guy doing tameshigiri on the Kumdo page on my teacher's site.) and you'll find this link:

http://www.mikeleestkd.com/tkd/korea2002.htm

If you notice, the 3rd photo down is nearly identical to the one on my teacher's site. And, if you go look at the Master's credentials, it only talks about TKD and not Kumdo, even though he is supposed to be 4 dan. No federation is given for Kumdo.

Guys, go to the link sminki just put up and you can see who this guy is that I have been learning from.

I hope the link I just put up, is a hyperlink. If not, just paste it into your browser.

Kaoru

[gugqgbyzlp]

Hi everybody,

Gendzwill-sensei, I see what you mean now. I didn't understand what you meant, at first. Thanks for clarifying it.

Ok, you guys, this is what happened. I just got back a half hour ago from practice, and you guys won't believe what he said. I was sure surprised. He made the first move in class, to discuss the bogu. He first showed me what the different stitchings on the school bogu. Then, I said quietly and politely, that I liked a particular set at bogubag.com. I forgot I'd already told him about it in my message-but I remembered that I didn't tell him which particular 5mm and 6mm sets I had been looking at. So, he said he'd looked at them and knew which one I was taling about-again impossible, since I never told him which I had looked at, and he said that he still won't let me order it from there. I looked at him and quietly asked why. He said it was policy, and it had to do with profit-he actually said that. Dishonorable that is. Anyway, then I said politely and again quietly, that I felt that it wasn't fair and that my Dad would prefer me to get that particular set. (Both my parents think I should get the one I like. I don't know why I just didn't say parents. I may not live at home, but my parents care what bogu I get.) So, he says to me, "Then maybe I should ask you to leave." in front of the class. I just LOOKED at him, and replied in my same even polite way, "I feel that would be unfair as well, sir." and then dropped the subject. Oh, I was seething, but buried any emotion whatsoever that I had regarding it. So then, he made this announcement to the entire class saying that anything such as shinai, bogu, tenugi, hakama, etc., had to be purchased from him, or we couldn't use it in class. This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life! Now, I can be upset... I'm not in class anymore, neh?

Oh, I might add, there was no way to get him into his office to discuss it, which I think, was just as well. I don't know if he has a temper or not. I wouldn't know what to do one on one, because I am not an agressive person outside of practice.

So ok, what I'd like to ask him now, is what happens if a new Kenshi comes from another dojo. Do they have to get all new bogu, etc. This is stupid, neh? Oh, how I wish I could grow new eyes and get to drive. I know where I'd go. The sad thing is, I really love Kendo(Well, I'm doing Kumdo because it was the only thing available.), and the nearest dojo is two hours away. Sigh...

Anyway, this is what the result so far is. What do you guys think about it??

Kaoru