[Preorbtat]

Everybody seems to be getting me wrong here
...
can no one understand why this makes me more uncomfortable than just having been scored a crappy strike?

interesting...you asked a question we gave you answers, but you don't seem to like them...so you assume we are misunderstanding you...sounds kinda familiar to the attitude shown in your original post...

let me tell you what i understand. you hit men, the other guy hit kote. flags went up, possible semblance of confusion, etc. the sushin called "kote" but gave the point to you (but the flags that had gone up eventually were all for you!) and you had hit men. so you asked your questions in the OP...am i still misunderstanding you? my answer then and now is:

no and no...

i doubt the other's answer would change...you are missing the point of their answers; irregardless of who benefited (your argument that we don't understand you is that you benefited and not the opponent), you still should not question the ref's calls or correct the ref's calls.

[Chubrehege]

I have seen coaches question calls though. There is a formal mechanism for that but its rarely used unless it is an "clerical" error, as opposed to a question regarding the quality of the judging.

There isn't any way to do it during the match that I'm aware of. You can file a protest afterwards, it will be duly noted.

[ahagotyou]

This whole thread reminded me of something:

At a military web forum that I also read, a young kid was always questioning, whining, and generally participated there in the most flippant manner possible. It was a surprise to all when one day this kid wrote that he was enlisting in the navy and asked for advices. The moderator, a retired officer, said, "Shut up. Just shut up. No matter what, just keep your mouth shut."

I think the retired officer's advise is most suitable for the OP in this thread, and in general for anyone who wants to know what to do or say in a shiai.

[mikeydesignzinc]

I think the retired officer's advise is most suitable for the OP in this thread, and in general for anyone who wants to know what to do or say in a shiai.

Cept Kiai of course

[TheBestCheapestOEM]

can no one understand why this makes me more uncomfortable than just having been scored a crappy strike?

I think everyone understands why it's an uncomfortable situation. It doesn't change anything.

[MortgFinsJohnQ]

I think that a mistake for not giving the right call is ok. It is something that shinpan should try to get better at with experience etc. It's one of the many aspect of training in kendo.

But there is a few things that are not acceptable when doing shinpan, like getting the rules wrong, showing big time confusion when you give a point or stopping the match for no reasons and breaking the flow of the shiai. That's being unfair to the players.

[Ygd2qr8k]

But there is a few things that are not acceptable when doing shinpan, like getting the rules wrong, showing big time confusion when you give a point or stopping the match for no reasons and breaking the flow of the shiai. That's being unfair to the players.

In one match I had at least three gogi and the match was stopped more times than that. For instance I got the opponents shinai under my chin, the head shimpan asked if I was ok, then they had gogi and he asked again!! Also, he had problems with pronouncing the commands, sounded like nothing I've heard before.

[MasTaBlau]

can no one understand why this makes me more uncomfortable than just having been scored a crappy strike?

Yes, but see, at some point you'll probably lose a match to a point that was either crappy or no point at all or even your own point. When that happens you may just as well think of it as karma (even though in reality it is just that shinpan, being human, are liable to err on either side) and just accept that it just happens sometimes.

[BoBoMasterDesign]

There isn't any way to do it during the match that I'm aware of. You can file a protest afterwards, it will be duly noted.

Thats what I was thinking of. However once during a tournament where I was working tableside, during a team match the coach for one of the teams pointed out a clerical (addition) error in the point total. I don't remember the specifics but I do remember that they reviewed the situation.

Ernie, are you more unsettled by witnessing the "falliability" of the (perhaps inexperienced) shimpans, as opposed the sort of "the great shimpans" we're sort of trained and brought up to believe?

[Adfcvkdg]

In one match I had at least three gogi and the match was stopped more times than that. For instance I got the opponents shinai under my chin, the head shimpan asked if I was ok, then they had gogi and he asked again!! Also, he had problems with pronouncing the commands, sounded like nothing I've heard before.

Simple explanation: inexperienced shinpan.

Unrelated musing...

Check out in the doco "A Single Blow (Tada ichigeki ni kakeru)" how Eiga sensei reflects on his loss to Miyazaki. Now the video of Miyazaki's men always made it look suspect. And Eiga was dumbfounded at the time that his kaeshi do didn't get the point. It certainly looked like he was robbed. But the point was he used that incident as the opportunity to deeply examine his own kendo. In the end he was able, with a lot of effort, to move past it and turn it to his advantage.

Why did he create an elaborate narrative for himself about how the shinpan awarded Miyazaki the point because it was uncalculated, natural, mushin etc? Well mainly because it gave him the possibility of doing something about it. "I didn't win because my kendo wasn't good enough" is not a weak attitude, it holds open the possibility of, "but I'm going to work hard and make it better." "I was robbed" is a weak attitude but also, ultimately, self-destructive because it casts oneself as the victim of forces outside one's control. And victims, while blameless, don't have the power to ever change their situation.

I suppose my point is: victim or perpetrator, the choice is (except in extreme situations) yours to decide which you are.

Just thoughts prompted by the discussion...

b

[ttoothh]

Brilliant post Ben. Must spread rep, etc.

[TNgqZhLR]

That reminds me of something that my sensei once told us. The only way a competitor has of making sure his points are called correctly is by executing them in a way that leaves no trace of a doubt. If your ippon was not clear enough so that doubts are completely impossible then you will have to accept that things may go wrong with the scoring.

[Belindanan]

Simple explanation: inexperienced shinpan.

Yes I know. I didn't become very agitated about it, it was just one of those weird things, where a part of you observe from the outside what is going on, realizing that you just have to make the best of it.

[iouiyyut]

One other small point I've been considering....

Where I practice, people start shimpaning at sandan. I guess when we start doing kendo, sandan seems very very far away. Its feels like a lifetime away, something that might happen in a vague and foggy future.

For the last 5-6 years for me its been, "oh its so far away, surely I'll be magically better and a completely different person by then" and I've been going to practice and learning about kendo, and not all that much thinking about becoming an "assistant instructor"

Then yesterday after practice, my sensei goes, "oh its in a year. You MUST test for sandan".



I'm not "magically" better, nor am I a "completely different person". I'm pretty much the same person I was a year ago.

The prospect of sandan pretty much all of a sudden went from a vague possibility of a uncertain future to "something I should plan and think of and pencil in for next October"

So I know that I'm not going to be a perfect shinpan and I'm going to probably make mistakes. As many mistakes as being a beginner. I'm pretty sure I'll be a beginner shinpan.

So, its gonna be rough for the guys I judge I guess.

[Nabeqiv]

When Odinot sensei is leading the training we get alot of the theoritic side of kendo poured over us.

As we have 3 members of the national team practising at our dojo he had one time us all being shinpan while they were having jigeiko.

Their exersize was to hit the other 2 out, our exersize was watching (mitori geiko?)

The idea behind this is so we learn how difficult it is to do the work the shinpan does.

Ofcourse for the team members it was to get them sharp for the next championship they had to goto. It was one who kept staying and he's national champion now.

[ropinirole]

So I know that I'm not going to be a perfect shinpan and I'm going to probably make mistakes. As many mistakes as being a beginner. I'm pretty sure I'll be a beginner shinpan.

There's a certain deer-in-the-headlights look people get when they are first asked to lead warmups. They've been doing warmups for years, all of a sudden they have to remember all the different exercises and in what order. You wouldn't think it would be hard, but somehow it is.

Multiply that by 10 when people who have been bitching about the judging for years, calling points from the sidelines etc, are suddenly handed a pair of flags and expected to call the points when it counts in front of God and everybody. They tend to be less critical of judges after the experience.