[YpbWF5Yo]

We were talking about this last night and no one had an answer. Why is the bokuto shorter then the shinai. The shinai is supposed to essentially be a katana which is represented in form and length by the bokuto, so why then is it longer?

[DarrenBent]

It doesn't have to be, if you want to use a shinai that is shorter you are allowed to, however, longer weapon equals longer reach and a competitive advantage.

[ebookinfo]

Wouldn't the shinai be too light for practice if it were only katana sized? Also as ender84567 points out, the longer shinai is more of a competitive advantage, the rules only state the 39 is the maximum length you must use for shiai. You can use a shorter one as long as it meets the minimum weight requirements, if I understand correctly.

[Kissntell]

It doesn't have to be, if you want to use a shinai that is shorter you are allowed to, however, longer weapon equals longer reach and a competitive advantage. Do you use a shinai that's smaller than 39, or know of any adult male that does? That's not the point anyway, taking a standard shinai of 39 and a standard bokuto is there a known reason why the shinai is longer, you can obviously use what ever length you want but the standard is 39, for men at least.

[gastabegree]

Why is the bokuto shorter then the shinai. The shinai is supposed to essentially be a katana which is represented in form and length by the bokuto, so why then is it longer?

My understanding is that back in the day when it was common for instructors to challenge each other for honour and also for the purpose of recruiting students, that there were no regulations on how long a shinai could be. Some people used very long ones to gain an advantage. Eventually the lengths were standardized to prevent this sort of thing. So the shinai lengths came about really from a competition regulations thing. There's no standard size for Japanese swords, and while a 39 shinai is longer than was commonly used, it's not out of the range of what existed historically.

The bokken serves a different purpose, it is supposed to be a close representation of a sword and so it is made to be an average-sized sword.

[TughEmotteTug]

Do you use a shinai that's smaller than 39, or know of any adult male that does? That's not the point anyway, taking a standard shinai of 39 and a standard bokuto is there a known reason why the shinai is longer, you can obviously use what ever length you want but the standard is 39, for men at least.

Well exactly, there is no reason that a kendo bokuto is the length it is, other than that is the length we use for kendo, there are other koryu that use much longer swords, Historically speaking you used the longest sword you could swing, as it gave you the same advantage.

another question you could ask is why does a shinai weight about half what a typical shinken does as well?

[redDoodia]

another question you could ask is why does a shinai weight about half what a typical shinken does as well?

Safety. If it weighed double what it does now, it would not be able to compress and flex, and the bogu would need to be much heavier. And I speculate there's a certain amount of competition-driven issues as well.

[QQQQQ-Trek]

Both the shinai and bokuto are derived from the katana but their different lengths are a reflection of their respective uses. The shinai is used in keiko and in tournaments where you are physically striking an partner/opponent and its length and weight has been standardized for such usage much like other sporting equipment is regulated. As Neil points though, the shinai's length is not without historic precedent for katana. The bokuto is used in kata and kihon waza where you are not physically striking your opponent but focusing on mental and physical nuances of kendo that support shinai techniques. Whether bokuto or shinai, maai is the important dimension, not the differing lengths between the two. Looking at chudan-no kamae, the relative positions of crossed shinai (usually somewhere below the sakigawa) and crossed bokuto (right at the yokote) will point out the difference in lengths but also the commonality of maai. Issoku-itto-no-ma is more an aspect of shinai waza rather than bokuto reiho, so it will differ according to each person in shinai practice whereas it is a set distance in kata or kihon waza practice. Still, the relative separation between partners at chudan is very similar whether using bokuto or shinai.

[indartwm]

Do you use a shinai that's smaller than 39, or know of any adult male that does?

I know an adult male that regularly uses a 38 in practice. He once told me it was to help him develop his footwork, but I don't think I ever saw him use a 39.


Just out of curiousity, does anyone know what the size of our standard bokuto are in shaku and sun?

[jarsbars]

I know an adult male that regularly uses a 38 in practice. He once told me it was to help him develop his footwork, but I don't think I ever saw him use a 39.

Point taken, and I don't doubt there are some that do but the norm is we all use 39, to not would put you at a disadvantage, you'll always find an exception to the rule.

I was just curious if there was a specific reason the lengths are what they are. If kendo is boiled down to the one step one strike then I don't understand the varying lengths. If lengths were determined over time through competition to standardize the shinai and for bokuto to have a middle of line katana size I completely understand. I was interested to know if there was something more behind it or was it one of those things that just developed into what it is.

[CorpoRasion]

Possibly if you uncurve the bokuto, it will equal in length to the straight shinai. ol.l

[mussmicky]

Well exactly, there is no reason that a kendo bokuto is the length it is, other than that is the length we use for kendo

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know what the size of our standard bokuto are in shaku and sun?

Kendo bokuto have a 2.35 shaku blade with an 8 sun tsuka. The blade length is the maximum permitted (for shinken) under an Edo shogunate law.

[Avgustslim]

So that makes a bokuto 3.15 shaku overall or roughly 95 cm. But I thought the standard kendo bokuto was 1 m long these days?

At any rate, 3.9 shinai typically have around a 10 sun tsuka, so the blade is a 2.9.

[Almolfuncomma]

So that makes a bokuto 3.15 shaku overall or roughly 95 cm. But I thought the standard kendo bokuto was 1 m long these days?

I'll double check the length of the tsuka (might be 8.5 sun), but beside blade and tsuka, there's seppa, tsuba, and habaki that contribute to the overall length.

[xanaxist]

We don't have seppa or habaki on bokuto - maybe they allow for the tsuba-dome instead?

[Fsfkkkjz]

Does anyone even sell a regulation weight men's 38 shinai?

[Onervemurce]

We don't have seppa or habaki on bokuto

But bokuto are stand-ins for weapons that do, so while length of the blade portion of a bokuto from tsuka to tip will be a certain length, it represents a sword of somewhat smaller length, measured from munemachi to tip.

[JNancy46]

Just measuring my bokken, the blade is about 30" from the notch, whereas my shinai the tip is around 33" from the end of the tsukagawa. I have pretty long tsukagawa on my shinai, so lots of people would have more "blade". But still, that makes my bokken a 2.5 and my shinai a 2.75, so not as huge a difference as most people think. A lot of the overall length difference is in the tsuka.

[itepearce]

So the next question is: Why the shinai tsuka is bigger than the bokuto tsuka?

Is possible that i have read somewhere that, back in the past, some dojo used shinai as heavy as normal sword (about 1.2 kg)?

[Morageort]

But still, that makes my bokken a 2.5 and my shinai a 2.75, so not as huge a difference as most people think. I agree with you that they're not so different, but I feel I need to put a caveat in on your measurements. If your bokken was a sword, it would be closer to a 2.35 than to a 2.5. Swords are measured by nagasa, which means a straight line from munemachi to kissaki. Since you were measuring your bokken from the tsuba, you are missing over an inch of habaki length that would be present in a sword.
Didn't really have a lot to do with the conversation, just had to throw that bit in.
Why the shinai tsuka is bigger than the bokuto tsuka? I would venture to guess that it's because the length of the blade is longer. The length of tsuka and length of blade should be somewhat tied together in a decent sword.